“Men have penises, women have vaginas; here ends my biology lesson.”
Jackass
Who said that? I couldn’t find it in the article.
No, sorry it from an interview he did. The full quote is
When asked if transgender women can be women on a Talkradio interview show, he was applauded by Julia Hartley-Brewer for his response, stating: “Men have penises, women have vaginas; here ends my biology lesson.”
Reported in the financial times, but also quoted in the Wikipedia bio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wes_Streeting
Could you explain to me how biologically this isn’t factual? The baby doesn’t pop out with a penis and the doctor go “congratulations! It’s a girl with a penis!”
Fucking delusional, you want to shift your hormones and swap sexy bits as an adult? More power to you. Wanna let undeveloped children cause irreversible damage to their body because they had a phase where they liked to cross dress? Get fucked, it’s absurd we let 18 year olds even apply to college or vote.
1 in 1,700 people are born with both sexual organs.
If extrapolated to the population of the United States that is 10% of the population of Nebraska that cannot be defined in this manner.
Therefore, that statement is not biologically factual as thousands of people have both.
Since this is a UK forum, the UK has 40,000 citizens who cannot be defined male or female in this manner.
Onto your point about manipulating gender at a young age.
The largest number of gender reassignment surgeries are performed on the population I just described, without their consent, at birth. And believe it or not often doctors get it wrong.
Someone assigned female by a doctor as a baby, well turns out mentally they are a boy, a boy who had their penis removed at birth. That might have some affect on a person, I think you’d agree.
So with that in mind, I agree with you about one thing, that non-reversible gender decisions should not be made without the consent of the individual being assigned a gender, as doctors are currently doing to intersex babies on a regular basis.
So can we stop pretending that gender reassignement is the problem? It’s just a wedge issue designed and promoted to keep the lower classes divided so that we don’t realize what the rich are doing to us and this planet. I am not your enemy. We are allies. The enemy is up/down, not left/right.
Transgender people just want to exist. Is it an unreasonable demand to exist and be acknowledged? I think not.
I understand your sentiment and I dont want to come off as just “transbasher” because i have close both male and female friends who after college decided they wanted to transition. I don’t agree with their thought process but I don’t tell them or put them down for their choice because it’s their choice as an adult.
On the subject of intersex births, I find the 1 in 1700 to be very generous. Having a mother who has worked labor and delivery for the past 30 years in a large hospital, she has only ever had 2 instances where the baby was born intersex. And that’s out of tens of thousands of deliveries. In those fringe cases I think sure we can allow those to be allowed to transition because there is a biological reason evident from birth. But if you just have a hormone imbalance that doesn’t mean you need to block the natural course of growth to see “what you’d prefer”. Just let the body do it’s thing and when it’s done developing then mess around with it.
I understand your sentiment and I dont want to come off as just “transbasher” […]
- You seem to be genuinely open-minded, which is good of course. So as you have been well-spoken and generous of thought, I will attempt to be with you as well.
[…] because i have close both male and female friends who after college decided they wanted to transition.I don’t agree with their thought process but I don’t tell them or put them down for their choice because it’s their choice as an adult.
- The concept of agreeing or disagreeing with someone’s lifestyle is foreign to me, so I cannot comment on that. I do not view myself as a judge to voice an opinion on any person’s lifestyle.
If I live in a society where I can use my sole judgement to manipulate the lifestyle of others, then that means that other members of that society can judge and manipulate my lifestyle. I do not want that for myself, so I do not wish it on others.
On the subject of intersex births, I find the 1 in 1700 to be very generous. Having a mother who has worked labor and delivery for the past 30 years in a large hospital, she has only ever had 2 instances where the baby was born intersex. And that’s out of tens of thousands of deliveries.
- You must realize that you are taking two missteps of reason here.
The first is anecdotal thinking by placing personal experience above targeted and broad research, the world is a complex place and while I have no doubt that your mother presents this information in earnest, it remains an anecdote.
The second is hearsay, you are not only using anecdotal information, but second-hand anecdotal information.
In my view, one of these errors alone would be enough to disqualify the validity of your point, and together, well… I have no doubt that you are an intelligent person and I hope you can see my concern here, would it not bolster your views to step away from anecdote?
Regarding the data, I cannot comment on the data itself because I admit I am not an expert, I fetched the values from the best information from medical institutions I could find. If better data is presented, I will amend my comment now and moving forward.
In those fringe cases I think sure we can allow those to be allowed to transition because there is a biological reason evident from birth.
- I agree.
But if you just have a hormone imbalance that doesn’t mean you need to block the natural course of growth to see “what you’d prefer”. Just let the body do it’s thing and when it’s done developing then mess around with it.
- I disagree, I cannot imagine the pain that transgender folks experience because I am not gender dysphoric, but I do know what it feels like to have someone doubt my experience of mind. Having experienced [won’t go into detail for personal reasons] a variety of mental health issues in my life which have been discarded by others as false because… they were invisible… it is difficult to express the anger that this conjured within me at being told that my own experience was invalid because the observer had not personally experienced what I describe and therefore to them it was imaginary.
Whether you have experienced something like this specific example, or not, I believe that all humans have had the experience of being told that we are lying (when we are not) and we all know how bad that feels. What is real to a person is real to a person. Brains are not computers. We are not purely rational beings. I think that it is fair to allow a person to take any action which 1. increases their quality of life while 2. not harming others and in my view gender affirmation behaviors fall directly into this category.
- (or 5a.) Regarding delaying treatment until full development. Many biological processes are not reversible, so allowing the body to “do what it will do” then address the results afterward introduces many complications.
Someone who doesn’t want to be a man might be pretty upset when biology makes them 6’8" (203cm) and 300lbs (136kg) then society says, “Okay you can try to be a girl now if you want.”
So I’m fine with this stance regarding reversible techniques (similar to how I feel about puberty blockers… kinda neat how my views are symmetric both ways, right? ;-) ) because there is no harm done. But forcing a delay to full development is something that I believe does cause harm.
Side note, often it can feel that taking no action is a safer action because of how our brains work. But as is often said, “Not making a decision, is a decision.” Taking no action can be equally harmful to taking an action. I believe that this thought applies to our current discussion.
Lucky for us, the arbitrarily set age of developement (roughly 15-18 depending on country) is well within the bounds of avoiding this scenario. That said, everyone develops at a different rate, and I think we all knew the 15 year old that was taller and broader than most full-grown men.
I hope that my comment reads well, I may add some small edits of clarification but I believe that I have expressed the general idea. Have a nice day.
I like this comment. You put the argument into reasonable perspective and have genuinely shifted my beliefs a bit. The reality is I will never willingly vote against any of these things in general election because in all honesty it doesn’t affect me.
But I do agree, growth development is variable, like how you’ve got that one guy in your freshman year bio class who has a full beard and chops. My only hangup is if you don’t make a decision is like the trolly problem. The growth is already on a set course, if you don’t intervene, is that really making a choice? Or because you’re actively NOT doing something is THAT the choice?
Alot of these issues be it trans/gay/illegal/whatever seem to be hung up more on semantics and word association than the actual issues which is stupid, and gets the movements nowhere.
I apologize again for coming off as ignorant, I’m logic dominant brain so alot of my arguments hit people the wrong way even if it’s correct.
I’m logic dominant brain so alot of my arguments hit people the wrong way even if it’s correct.
That’s a fat bowl of copium for “I can’t be bothered to learn how to reasonably communicate with people”. If you were actually logic dominant, you’d just fix the issue. Instead, you’re full of shit.
And here we have the emotional dominant brain. See how it skips the whole argument and focuses in on a point that has nothing to do with the content?
Fascinating creatures you are.
{I am mega sleepy so I’ll do some clean up edits on this tomorrow probably when my brain is working properly}
Tbh you never came off as ignorant, you seemed genuine and curious otherwise I would not have engaged. We are all ignorant of many things, it’s just a matter of how willing we are to fill that ignorance and how we react to discovering that ignorance.
Responding to another comment you made here.
I don’t really understand the emotional replies online either, everyone seems to be out to hurt others and I don’t understand it. It is so predictably vitriolic that I think that most of the rage is just bots arguing with bots to create the illusion of discord. Just a ‘hopeful’ conspiracy theory of mine… surely people aren’t so mean?
Sex isn’t gender and puberty blockers don’t cause irreversible damage.
You’re a shit person who’s spewing other people’s opinions and thus hate, because you’re too intellectually lazy to read about these things to grasp the even the basic concepts being discussed.
So please refrain from going around calling people delusional until you spend at least a single minute reading up on what you pretend to understand.
There’s a reason the term “transgender” is used over “transsexual”.
Ah yes, I’m a shit person for presenting an ideology different from yours. But please, bring up some semantics to break down my point, see how that works for you.
Of course you’re one of the “my ignorance is worth as much as your facts” people.
YOU don’t have an opinion that you’ve formed yourself. You’ve passively ingested ultra simplistic right wing rhetoric, because taking the time to actually understand the subject would mean you understand it and if you understood it you’d accept it because you’d know it’s know what that garbage rhetoric makes it out be.
But no. You can’t simply spend a few minutes on Wikipedia reading about it. You probably sat there writing that reply for 20 minutes, which you could’ve spent actually reading the Wikipedia article on the subject to understand why no-one agrees with “your opinion.”
No, it’s likely you’re presenting the ideology because you’re a shit person. Change is possible though! Don’t lose hope
Ah yes, I’m a shit person
End of.
What’s absurd is how you’ve formed a strong negative opinion despite it being pretty obvious you’re completely clueless about the details of the topic.
Kids aren’t just given puberty blockers immediately at their request. A lot of work is done prior, with the parent(s) and medical and mental health providers determining the validity of the situation and working with the child to determine the course of treatment, if any.
It’s fine to disagree, but at least educate yourself first. Otherwise you’re just another bigot.
You state that I’m clueless about the topic yet I’ve had not 1 but 2 seperate friends who I’ve been with through their ENTIRE transition one from 13 the other 19 both M>F
The first one was put on pb as well as a litany of other medications and supplements. The second i only recall estrogen and t blockers. Now fast forward about 10 years. 19 is now 29, and she is still one of my best friends. The 13? 23 now and absolutely regrets the decision and constantly posts Healthcare slam posts and self harm.
So please, tell me how to educate myself more you uninformed twat.
Sure buddy. We don’t know those friends though. They go to another school. In canada.
Wanna let undeveloped children cause irreversible damage to their body because they had a phase where they liked to cross dress?
This hilarious argument if wasn’t just a bad faith argument should be enough for everyone be in favor of puberty blockers, to avoid avoid irreversible change while the person matures and can decide what one wants to do.
.
Thanks for the ping. Well said.
I misread your comment and said something stupid :)
Can’t seem to delete comments on Lemmy, so I replace them with a single period.
Apologies for the false alarm.I did not know that you can’t delete comments and had seen the single dot comment before. Today I learned.
In any case no apologies needed, it was nice to revisit the thread and see more knowledgeable people weight in :)
Let’s start with the basics. It’s not all XX and XY.
Anomoly noun
- Deviation or departure from THE NORMAL or COMMON order, form, or rule.
Yes, well done. Exceptions occur naturally, everywhere.
To restate the initial point being discussed, “Humans are sometimes neither male nor female.”
An anomaly differs from the common, as you state.
But in this discussion, we are talking about “the existence of something” and not “the normalcy of something”. Those are completely separate discussions.
No one is arguing that being born between genders is ‘normal’ or ‘common’, in fact, the abnormalcy of it is what allows those who carry prejudice and hate in their hearts to hurt and kill these people physically and legislatively.
In short, your comment presents no information relevant to the topic at hand.
My comment is to drive home the point that if you’re a small enough minority, you shouldn’t expect the rest of the population to bend to your ideology. I carry no prejudice whatsoever, trans people can be as trans as they want.
My point isn’t that “trans people don’t exist” like you and many others just infer. My point is that un-fully developed children should not be permitted to cease that development because of an emotional feeling.
If you disagree fantastic, that’s why this is a point of contention. But to demonize and vilifiy those who disagree with you is childish and leads me to believe you haven’t fully developed yourself.
According to the 2021 census, trans people are .5% of the population. Jewish people are .4% of the population. Where is your cutoff for what population is too minor to care about?
There are so many flaws with this line of thinking which should be obvious to you, yet are not. I urge you to continue thinking this thought. Follow it to an actionable conclusion, then see how you feel about that conclusion. It may take you a few years so I wish you well on your journey.
Keep thinking, keep considering, follow the path.
Your parents failed you. Your schooling failed you. Your society failed you. You’re an adult and you don’t even understand the concept that uncommon things exist. Instead you lash out in anger at the notion that such abnormalities might be acknowledged.
Lash out in anger? I’m stating an opinion on a public forum. I very much understand these things exist, if you read my actual comment you’d realize that I have personal “lived experience” as you guys so loving claim. Get a grip and realize that just because people don’t agree with you doesn’t mean they’re wrong.
I’ll ignore whatever “you guys” is supposed to mean. I never brought up lived experience and neither did you in this comment chain. A person jokingly commented a rigid, universal claim. You asked for an explanation to how the rigid claim was incorrect. You were shown counterexamples. You replied by quoting a dictionary definition in order to emphasize that the counterexamples are less common than the supposedly universal examples from the original comment. This is, obviously, irrelevant to the logic. That is why I said that you were failed by your parents, schooling, and society, because those three things were responsible for teaching you to understand reality around you and to be capable of reasoning. Your idea that infrequency is the same as nonexistence shows a deficit in basic reasoning. This has nothing to do with opinion.
stares at you in ASD
also australian
also white
Oh look, i’m a hat trick!
The penis and vagina thing is basic biology. Like, high school basic. Sexual development is WAY more complex than that.
Do you know what also causes irreversible damage? Puberty in trans kids
Do you actually have a single thought that’s not an hysterical strawman argument?
It’s because we’ve turned being trans into a religion.
Only for gender dysmorphia.
Which is still stupid to ban it for that, but a lot better than a total ban.
I don’t know why people are so worried about it. I was over 6 feet tall and shaving before I was a teenager, if I had been given the option to press pause for a few years I would have jumped on it.
There is pretty much zero negative side effects to puberty blockers, it literally just delays it and early puberty is an issue and one that continues to trend in the wrong direction.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/puberty-starting-earlier-treatment-children-rcna125441
Obviously it can be much worse for girls than boys, but it was still fucking weird being a child and having people twice your age assume you were a peer.
I don’t know why people are so worried about it
As far as I understand it, there are two main concerns that people have.
-
There is very limited data regarding clinical proof that the long term use of puberty blockers is 100% reversible in cases that block puberty during the typical years that you would go through it. Traditionally, puberty blockers would be used in cases where children start puberty at extremely young ages, in these cases the puberty blockers would be withdrawn at an age typical for a child to start puberty.
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Leading on from point 1. Many people don’t trust children to make decisions that could impact them for the rest of their lives. Some parents are concerned they will be met with their child who is now a young adult to be asked “why the hell did you let me make that decision, don’t you know the brain is still developing at that age?”. I would not want to be held accountable for the countless stupid things I said or beliefs I held at a young age, so I can see why it is a concern.
Personally, I’m broadly in support of trans rights and what people want to do when they’re adults is their own business (as long as they’re not hurting anyone), but I think allowing a child to make a decision that may impact them for the rest of their lives is a grey area to say the least. Until conclusive evidence is available I’d draw the line for a child at anything that’s not 100% fully reversible.
Traditionally, puberty blockers would be used in cases where children start puberty at extremely young ages
Puberty blockers have been prescribed to transgender youth since the 90s, they’re use in combating gender dysphoria is just as much a part of the puberty blocker tradition as their use in combating early puberty.
I would not want to be held accountable for the countless stupid things I said or beliefs I held at a young age, so I can see why it is a concern.
This subtle notion that slips into this discourse that being trans is akin to a make-belief thing is deeply frustrating. No, children were not just being given puberty blockers because they suddenly declared that they weren’t their assigned gender. Getting puberty blockers required a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, something I can assure you is not an easy thing to get in this country, and even then still needed a specialist’s approval.
This is the worst part of this ‘debate’, people are led to believe that it’s the child deciding for themselves that they get puberty blockers despite the very stringent requirements on their use for trans youths. The point of this entire ordeal is not to protect kids (puberty blocker usage has a 4% regret rate), it’s to build up the idea that no amount of safeguards can make the prescribing of trans healthcare acceptable to people you don’t believe have full bodily autonomy. Where this goes from here is not looking for other areas in which our medical system is failing children, it’s expanding the list of trans people who don’t have full bodily autonomy. The Cass Review has already said that autistic people need special consideration.
I think allowing a child to make a decision that may impact them for the rest of their lives is a grey area to say the least.
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It’s not a child making the decision. It’s typically adults making the decision for the sake of the child, and based on the child’s needs. The child is involved but it’s not like the adults just go along with a childish whim. The decision is made with caution and care and expert consultation, and it is not made lightly.
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Deciding to go ahead with puberty is also a decision that impacts a child for the rest of their life. In cases of gender dysmorphia this can cause psychological trauma that won’t just clear up, and prolong the agony by forcing the person to live into adulthood with a body that feels deeply wrong. At this point, transitioning can be more difficult because the body may already have taken on pronounced characteristics associated with the wrong gender.
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There is very limited data regarding clinical proof that the long term use of puberty blockers is 100% reversible
There is about 40 years of real life use, and I think a good 20 years of study before that?
How much data from clinical studies and real world use do you need to feel comfortable?
Many people don’t trust children to make decisions that could impact them for the rest of their lives
But the permanent effects of puberty blockers are negligible…
What do you think is permanent about them?
I don’t think you understand what Puberty Blockers are…
You seem to be wanting to ban something completely different.
The forty years worth of proof you are referring to is in almost all cases where the use was to block early puberty and then allow it to take its course at a normal age. There are very few case studies regarding the extended use of puberty blockers during the years where it would typically take place. I did mention these things.
How much proof I would need is a tough question because it obviously requires testing on children and it’s an ethical issue. If a consensus of respected doctors were to agree, I wouldn’t argue though.
At the end of the day, I’m not pretending to be an expert in puberty blockers, I’m saying that sometimes children need to be protected from themselves.
The forty years worth of proof you are referring to is in almost all cases where the use was to block early puberty and then allow it to take it’s course at a normal age.
Which is what would happen if they decided not to go thru with transitioning as an adult…
Which is what you said you’re worried about.
Like, you’re still talking about something besid s puberty blockers:
How much proof I would need is a tough question because it obviously requires testing on children and it’s an ethical issue.
Lots of children go on puberty blockers, the reason they’re going on them doesn’t change how safe they are.
At the end of the day, I’m not pretending to be an expert in puberty blockers,
I’m saying you don’t seem to know what they are. The temporarily block puberty. That is it. You keep wanting to take it to a possible surgery later as an adult, and claim the blockers are a permanent and irreversible step towards that
When that is just factually incorrect.
It is not an opinion we disagree on. It is a fact and you are wrong.
I’m saying that sometimes children need to be protected from themselves.
Literally what puberty blockers are…
So children don’t have to prematurely choose if they want to transition they take blockers until they are sure and mature enough to make that decision, which is almost always when they’re over 18.
If they change their mind, they just stop taking blockers.
I legitimately have no idea how to state it any plainer than this.
Which is what would happen if they decided not to go thru with transitioning as an adult…
That is quite obviously an assumption. You are extrapolating data and although I see the logic of your argument, it’s bad science. The rest of your comment is based on this premise.
What?
You said:
The forty years worth of proof you are referring to is in almost all cases where the use was to block early puberty and then allow it to take it’s course at a normal age.
And I replied:
Which is what would happen if they decided not to go thru with transitioning as an adult…
If someone goes on puberty blockers, decides not to transition…
Then that is:
where the use was to block early puberty and then allow it to take it’s course at a normal age.
You keep saying your issue is with puberty blockers, but the only complaints you have is minors transitioning.
Since that doesn’t happen, you seem to be mad at blockers
I’ve said everything I have to say and I can see trying to explain myself further will be fruitless.
If you honestly think that a child could block puberty up to the age of 18 or further and then change their mind and go through a normal puberty like nothing ever happened, then good for you, personally, I’m doubtful.
Vaccines can have devastating permanent side effects. Should parents no longer vaccinate their children?
The answer for both is:
Whichever option does less harm should be taken. A delayed puberty, despite potential long-term risks does less harm than a trans child going through the “wrong” puberty.
Besides, due to the start of puberty having a pretty large range there should in theory be little harm until the age of 14 or so. And at that age children are much more capable of deciding on medical treatments than as preteens.
The main difference with vaccines is the overwhelming medical proof of the benefits, that’s something that currently isn’t there with the use of puberty blockers during the years you would typically go through it.
I do somewhat agree with your less harm premise. If a child literally threatens to kill themselves, then as a parent you’d feel like you had little choice in the matter, however if there are permanent side effects and the child, now as a young adult starts regretting their decision, it’s going to be shit for everyone.
There is significant proof of benefits:
Positive outcomes were decreased suicidality in adulthood, improved affect and psychological functioning, and improved social life. Adverse factors associated with use were changes in body composition, slow growth, decreased height velocity, decreased bone turnover, cost of drugs, and lack of insurance coverage.
https://doi.org/10.1111/camh.12437
I can’t vouch for the quality of this literature review (because I don’t want to take an hour or more to read a paper for a Lemmy comment), but usually literature reviews show a fuller picture than individual studies.
Also, this sentence is in the conclusion:
Although large long-term studies with diverse and multicultural populations have not been done, the evidence to date supports the finding of few serious adverse outcomes and several potential positive outcomes.
If puberty blockers are not reversible and if the person decides that they are not trans in later life, then the consequence would be that they are stuck in a body that doesn’t match their self-image.
If that sounds bad to you, well …
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This you at 12?
except for use in clinical trials
Let’s hope that allows many kids access to the care they need. If there’s a real concern about the safety of puberty blockers, then clinical trials are exactly what’s needed to find out. I’m not entirely convinced this is really due to medical concern though. It smells like Labour trying to out-bigot the Conservatives, just to prove they’re not lefties any more.
My understanding is by medical standards, the evidence is pretty low quality, which is why GnRH agonists aren’t approved by the EMA, MHRA, FDA, or NICE for gender dysphoria.
It highlights a wider issue in medicine though, the obsession with randomised controlled trials, which is basically the only evidence the GRADE method considers “high quality”. We are seeing exactly the same problem with MDMA assisted therapy, any therapy where blinding is difficult is dismissed by the medical establishment. NICE dismissed (es)ketamine for depression for the same reason. Add to that the fact that GnRH agonists are off patent, so there’s no incentive for industry to fund studies.
My understanding is by medical standards, the evidence is pretty low quality,
Your understanding is wrong and influenced by transphobic rhetoric, not “medical standards”, which have considered puberty blockers safe and effective since at least the 1980s.
The use of puberty blockers is supported by twelve major American medical associations, including the American Medical Association,[14] the American Psychological Association,[15] and the American Academy of Pediatrics.[16] the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry,[17] the Pediatric Endocrine Society,[18] the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists,[19] the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists,[20] and the American College of Physicians.[21] In Australia four medical organizations support them,[22] as does the Endocrine Society,[23] and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH).[24]
Overall, puberty blockers have demonstrated an excellent safety and efficacy profile in the treatment of precocious puberty. The most common side effects reported include nonspecific headaches, hot flashes, and implant-related skin reactions.[39]
E: and before you try throwing bone density at me, most of the people impacted are cis (and will not be stopped from taking blockers), and either way, there is simple treatment to counteract this minor issue (and which is completely insignificant when compered to the alternative). The ban is 100% motivated by transphobia and cruelty.
We’re not talking about the use of puberty blockers in cases of precocious puberty, we’re talking about them in cases where they’d block typical puberty in cases of gender dysphoria.
In a message directly to them, and referencing having come out as gay, he said: “I know it’s not easy being a trans kid in our country today, the trans community is at the wrong end of all of the statistics for mental ill health, self-harm and suicide."
I just wanted to quote this bit of the article, as I feel this is often used in bad faith arguments such as: “I don’t hate trans people, I just want to protect them from the bad outcomes that come with being trans.”
Do these people ever stop to think that it may be the way that trans people are treated, talked about, and denied essential medical care that contributes to poor mental health outcomes? Maybe if we didn’t treat people shittily, they wouldn’t feel shit.
Will this finally settle the debate so we can focus on more pressing issues?
It has settled the debate - our government hates trans people, and is actively withholding our human rights and going out of its way to harm us.
If that isn’t a pressing issue to you, you are part of the problem and a transphobe.
No because this was clearly the wrong decision to come to.
#SorryNotSorry you can’t silence the LGBT community that easily.
It will increase suicides in transgender youth
Is your life a debate to be settled? Could you kill yourself and settle that debate for me?
God no. People made their mind up that children should be able to permanently fuck up their body and hormones.
That’s a hill they will die on.
Their bodies get “fucked up” by hormones if they do nothing. We all get “fucked up” on hormones to some extent, it’s just that puberty blockers allow more opportunity to decide which way to get “fucked up.” If you truly wanted to help “brainwashed trenders” not “fuck up their bodies,” you’d support puberty blockers. It gives them the most time to decide with as few side effects as possible.
You think transitioning is what happens when treatment fails? You think it’s some sort of unfortunate outcome? The data paints a clear picture: transition is the best outcome for us. No other treatment works, and as far as treatments for psychological phenomenon go, it’s one of the best.
I wish I could say you’re dying on a hill, but you’re not. You’re throwing screaming children into a pit and burning them alive. You’ll face no consequence for your humble contribution outside of possible guilt, but nothing will undo the harm.
If you people people on puberty blockers when they are going through development it will fuck up their body and they won’t develop the way they are meant to.
Its not like it is reversible. If some guy takes puberty blockers from 12-18 there is no way he is going to develop in the man he would have without the blockers. Same for women. It stunts their development.
Ideally they’ll start hormones or go off blockers by about 16, but you can’t comprehend that because you already decided that 18 had to be the start point. You don’t want trans kids lucky enough to discover their identity early to transition, probably not thinking through what the consequences are. You hope that they’ll not medically transition, but in all likelihood, they’ll just end up suicidally depressed for no good reason.
You’re correct in assuming that gender isn’t a choice, but incorrect in how you apply that idea. Attempts have been made to force cis boys that got maimed by botched circumcisions to be girls. They did not end well. Attempts have been made to find alternatives to gender affirmation, but they never work. Nobody can be converted. Nobody knows how.
Stop being a knob and accept the failures of naive doctors trying to snuff us from existence. You affirm us, or you torture us. There is no other option.
