- cross-posted to:
- germany@feddit.org
- cross-posted to:
- germany@feddit.org
Edited later to add:
The original press release seems to be gone now, but here is what is claimed to be the revised release, and an article on the same topic.
https://www1.wdr.de/nachrichten/polizei-dortmund-greta-gewaltbereit-100.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/german-politician-calls-greta-thunberg-102611513.html
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The news in Germany is also shockingly biased. Obviously things like the Bild were going to be, but even on more mainstream news, you don’t hear about Palestinian casualties, nor do you hear interviews with Palestinians or Israelis against of the war (at most you get an Israeli who’s slightly critical of methods, but still thinks Israel should be actively defending itself). If you’re a German who doesn’t look at international sources for news, it would be very strange not to support Israel, based on what you’re hearing. It’s infuriating, but it’s also difficult to change. I don’t know what it would take for the German media to stop supporting them.
I do not know what you’re reading or watching but the SZ for one has been reporting both sides quite frequently. I’ve just yesterday read an interview with a Palestinian-Israelian and a Jewish-Isrealian on the topic of how the West is still too hooked on the premise of two seperate states and that in their vision for peace a federal union with an unbiased and lawful constitution would be best.
I do not know if I am too unconcerned of that particular conflict right now, but it does bug me that it seems that there is barely any voices in between on the internet and most public voices. You either have unconditional support for Israel or you have people calling Isreal genocidal and comparing the state to Nazi-Germany.
How either of those sides wants to solve the issue is beyond me, if both sites keep their stance without even trying to debate on the problems (granted you have people in power on both sides of the conflict, willing to change, which I frankly don’t see at all) there will not be any solution for this. Because right now Israel will bomb its neighbours into oblivion while they are being played as puppets by Iran and other invested countries or you will have to dissolute Israel which the USA and Germany will not (and in the latter case cannot) allow. So much for advocating for peace on both sides.
I’m mostly going off of the Tagesschau and FAZ, but that’s good to know about SZ. I do hear super pro Palestinian takes (I’m on the calling this a genocide side, but not on the glorifying Hamas side), but those tend to be from local Marxist groups (student town) or foreign publications, so a more mainstream, balanced source is nice.
I unfortunately agree that this is probably not going to get solved in time.
A lot of Germans still remember the 1972 Summer Olympics massacre in Munich and the aftermath like the plane hijack to free the captured perpetrators and are therefore biased against Palestinians, suspecting a lot of violent people among them. It’s not a good environment to protest.
German here: if you take peaceful demonstration as an option away from people, they are left with two options: being resigned or non-peaceful demonstration. The German stance to hinder peaceful demonstration against the Israeli atrocities is stupid and labeling Greta Thunberg as primed for violence is beyond stupid. And the majority of Germans has no active memory of the 72 Olympics incident.
As a German: Our government, as an apology, is letting the Israeli government do a genocide of their own. You were so close, and then you took the anti-semitic turn by referring to “the jews” :(
However, also as a German: While I do absolutely wish Israel was forced to stop the atrocities they commit, and pay reparations, I believe that - given our specific history with the state of Israel and what Germans did to the Jewish population of Europe just ~80 years ago, there are plenty of states in the world that are better candidates to take an aggressive political stance towards Israel, before Germany does.
Some of us are still very much committed to absolutely defending the absolute right of Israel to exist as a state, while also (albeit sadly less of us) there are people who at the same time see the war crimes committed by the Israeli army and secret services against civilian populations of Gaza & Lebanon.
But the German government can not just take the side of Palestinians here, not because the current Israeli administration does not belong in jail, but because there are those who will - should the pendulum swing to the other side again - ask for revenge / war on Israel / commit crimes against Israeli civilians. Or, as we already see, use the violence in the middle east to justify hate crimes against Israelis or Jewish people in other countries.
Those who do the killing are evil on both sides, and those who do the suffering and dying are mostly not the same group of people - neither in Israel, nor in Gaza or Lebanon.
Long story short - Germany is stuck between a rock and a hard place in this, and it is MUCH easier for virtually any other country in the world to speak on behalf of the Palestinians. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t speak out, but I can understand why German politicians are very carefully weighing their options on this.
The concern is legitimate, but it falls into the same “never again - to us” pit Israel fell into. Another potential framing one could take of the issue - one I feel is more helpful - would go something like: 80 years ago, the world got together to help save Germany from itself, and it’s time to return the favor, hopefully before it gets completely out of hand like last time.
It’d be a good take on this, but there are still too many people in the world that fall for hypocrisy when one side is lying through their teeth and the other is calling out the bullshit and saying things as they are. Too many people will side with the liars who would claim that Israel is acting in self-defense and fighting “terrorists”.
Edit: I had to reword a few sentences (previous and next), because it seemed as if I was talking about liars on the one hand, and nazi parties on the other, as if they weren’t one and the same - that is absolutely not what I meant, I just reworded too much and then read it myself and thought “oh damn”.
I admit that the higher risk in Germany right now is the anti-“brown people”, putin-loving piece of shit nazi party (AfD, in case you were wondering, but CDU/CSU comes close), and not any anti-semitic party. So I guess calling out Israeli war crimes wouldn’t come with an immediate risk of a rise in anti-semitism.
I guess that’s also the problem here. Palestinians are seen as “brown people” and the post 2001 hate-filled news escalation has deepened the deeply ingrained racism in many parts of European societies. So among our political parties (and I don’t see a difference from most European countries), none is really vocal about the crimes against humanity being committed in Gaza and Lebanon. And previously Syria. And Iraq. And Afghanistan. And before that Iran. Notice a pattern?
Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. Religion based countries will always resort to fighting anyone that doesn’t conform to their flavor of religion.
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It’s sad, but also makes me really angry, that “pro Palestine” and “supporting Israel” are now seen as polar opposites.
Also, the ongoing war is in no way connected to the 1940’s Holocaust, apart from the obvious “they’re both unspeakably horrible”.
The holocaust led to more jews going to the holy land which lead to the creation of the state of Israel, which since its inception has had expelling the Palestinians as its main goal. Palestinians rightfully so started resisting through different groups which has lead to Israel doubling down on its genocidal motives leading to today. They are connected just not as obviously as other events.
Israel was primed to be created regardless of the holocaust
Israel cannot exist as a concept if you support Palestinians right to exist. They’re fundamentally incompatible.
… What? There are fully integrated Palestinians living in Israel right now, they could just integrate them or let them establish their own self rule in one form or another
All it takes is to improve conditions and slowly increase rights for Palestinians until they’re full citizens. Probably start by making it illegal to mow them down in the streets. If you cut off the flow of new recruits, Hamas will wither. If conditions are rapidly improving, it’s hard to convince people to martyr themselves
And Israel could do that… Just not with an unpopular administration that is using this conflict to stay in power
Netanyahu’s administration has support from the majority of the population, and has only lost some support due to not eliminating Gaza fast enough. There is no world where the fascist imperialist settler colony of Israel exists while free Palestinians exist. The people of Israel have made that clear, not the administration.
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Drag seems to be a fucking moron if he talks shit like that.
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