I’ve seen some criticism of Rojava, specifically because they have private property rights, some Kurdish nationalist tendencies, and their status as sort of a US proxy. I don’t know enough about the situation to say how true that all is, though.
was of the impression that on the ground they were fairly communist. Lenin was required reading etc. Libertarian Socialism is something Kurdish movements pivoted to when Öcalan and the PKK pivoted from Marxist-Leninism.
From what I gather, its mostly about having a decentralized organizational structure, which makes sense for a movement thats spread across three or more countries. Decentralized movements often lack the capability of coordinated action and seize opportunities but are much harder to kill off compared to centralized orgs.
The Kurds in Turkey sure do because he’s the leader of the PKK. Idk about Iraq. Its a touchy subject to say the Kurds in Syria follow Öcalan, since they swear no affiliation with the PKK.
I think this needs to be put in context as Kurds are a big ethnic group that has a very long history of pretty brutal oppression, especially given that the traditional Kurdish region spans across many borders so if you’re a Kurd in your ancestral lands in Iran - lol good luck, and if you’re a Kurd in Iraq - lol good luck, and if you’re a Kurd in Turkey - lol good luck.
I’m not sure where OP is but imagine if the Roma people had their own ancestral homeland that they have continually occupied which was pretty unified but which is also divided by modern European borders. There’s every chance that the Roma people would be like “Fuck this, we have been treated like dogshit (including being subjected to ethnic cleansing and genocide) and there isn’t a single state in Europe which is gonna look out for us so we need to look out for ourselves and create a Roma state” because it’s essentially exactly that for Kurds right now.
I’d say that Kurds are best understood as as existing in an internal colony within Iran, Syria, Iraq, and Turkey. With this in context I view Kurdish nationalism as being more aligned to national liberation than the uglier side of nationalism.
With that being said, the Kurds are not angels and there are troubling reports about Kurdish forces carrying out ethnic cleansing and even genocide. The problem is that governments, especially the Syrian and Turkish governments, are extremely hostile towards Kurds and the reports of ethnic cleansing are easily fabricated, exaggerated (e.g. non-Kurds who lived under ISIS fairly contently fleeing when Kurdish forces take a region because they don’t want to end up imprisoned for collaborating with ISIS or simply fleeing because a new salient has opened up where they live and they don’t want to get killed in the fighting), or they are distorted (e.g. masses fleeing ISIS or another force but the blame being pinned on Kurds for political reasons) so it’s difficult to really get a good grasp of what’s going on.
Ultimately Kurds are stuck in a shitty situation that has been foisted upon them by other political players and they’re doing what is in their interests so it’s hard to be unsympathetic towards them.
Are they being used as a splinter group to foment balkanisation in the region of the Levant by the US who seeks to destabilise and overthrow the Syrian government? Yep, at least historically.
Are they used as a tool by the US to keep Erdogan on a leash so that he doesn’t stray too far from Uncle Sam’s agenda, at the risk of them supporting Kurdish separatism and turning Turkey into a civil warzone/rump state? Yes.
If I were Kurdish and had the chance to shoot my shot for the opportunity of establishing a Kurdistan as a recognised state and distinct political entity, would I go for it? Yes.
If I were on the frontlines fighting against ISIS, a force that would absolutely exterminate Kurds if they are given the opportunity, and the US armed forces sought to broker a deal to coordinate attacks on ISIS and to provide support to my side, would I take them up on that offer? It brings me no joy to say it but yes, I would.
It’s a really messy, ugly situation and it has been this way for a very long time for the Kurds. They don’t have clean hands but when you’re fighting for survival you have to fight dirty.
Idk what to say. A balkanised Syria is bad news for the Syrian people and for the wider region but a strong, unified Syria is no guarantee for safety for the Kurds in any way. If Atatürk didn’t have an epiphany one day and decide “You know what? Fuck the Kurds!” then maybe things would be very different right now but as it stands the Kurds only have the safety that they fight for and maintain with their lives so Kurdish nationalism is understandable imo.
I agree that they seem to have just taken the US support as a massive attempt to both get their cause seen by more people (which is helpful in changing hearts and minds away from the “they are PPK and PKK are ‘terrorists’” which was how they were presented by even US propaganda). And to use the really good opportunity in the fight against ISIS to get any and all supplies they could from the US in order to keep their area defended for the inevitable attacks from Türkiye after ISIS. Though I am not sure how many weapons and other defense related items they were able to get (but supplies are supplies). They still need to make sure to walk the fine lines with the Syrian government to be sure.
The most fucked thing that they have been left with is the ISIS prisoners and their families. The longer that those massive numbers of people are left in limbo due to all the nations that they originated from not wanting to take them back. The worse shit will be when those folks break out of containment. Shit would be great to use by Türkiye especially as an excuse to “legitimately” invade. Which means brutal genocide of the Kurds from both sides. And if the open air prisons go on long enough, it will be easy for bad-faith actors to eventually paint them as doing what Israel is doing with Gaza/West Bank. Which isn’t what they are doing, but multiple generations of families being imprisoned (even if said prisons weren’t setup by the Kurds for that length of time in mind) for crimes against humanity that the new generation didn’t commit will be easy to use for propaganda.
The Kurds are resourceful, but trying to figure out how to allow people out without it turning into a bloodbath is beyond fucked. It might have been easier (and still beyond fucked) to have not taken prisoners and kill anyone and everyone that flew the ISIS flag before “victory” was claimed. They know that a majority of prisoners actively plan and openly speak about the torture and murder they will commit if they are able to get out. Which I imagine is what the long term goal of Türkiye and other hostile powers wish to make happen. The nations that want to keep their hands clean of bringing ISIS families back home to have to deal with are fine with Kurds being killed. Just like how the US and the West have done with green-washing themselves by pushing shit off onto “third world” nations.
I’ve gotten into countless screaming matches online with the people who supported the absolute bullshit about the Shamima Begum case, the “ISIS bride” who left the UK and joined up with ISIS before the UK stripped her of her citizenship.
At no point did I ever convince a single person who supported the UK government’s actions on the basis of:
Upholding international law that the UK is a signatory to
The fact that UK citizens are the UK’s responsibility and that they need to deal with them rather than exporting their problems to developing countries
That a country should not be able to take punitive actions against a citizen by decree without there being a fair judicial process where the accused has an opportunity to defend themselves against the charges and to be evaluated for stuff like their competence because this sets a dangerous precedent for anyone who cares about civil liberties
That Shamima Begum was literally a child who was groomed online and that she should be given leniency based on the fact that she was a stupid kid who made stupid choices
That the best way to make lifelong supporters of ISIS is to strip people of citizenship and mark them as international terrorists (despite there being no charges laid against Shamima in a court of law) so that they become completely dependent upon ISIS and have zero way to reintegrate into society because now they literally cannot enter any country ever again, so this act is one of the most supportive of ISIS and anyone who supports this act is directly aiding and abetting ISIS by creating the political consensus to make it a reality in the first place
That the second best way to make lifelong supporters of ISIS is to provide them with a person who is basically guaranteed to become their broodmare for the next 30 odd years
This is yet-another example of actions by the US that just so happen to support ISIS. Between reports of the US military arming and training groups flying the SDF flag only to discover them a short time later fighting for ISIS and shifty things to do with abandoning weapons caches and funding sources in gulf states it’s enough to make me wonder if the US actually opposes ISIS or if it’s another Gladio type situation.
especially given that the traditional Kurdish region spans across many borders so if you’re a Kurd in your ancestral lands in Iran - lol good luck, and if you’re a Kurd in Iraq - lol good luck, and if you’re a Kurd in Turkey - lol good luck.
To add to this, the Kurds had their own territory under the Ottomans. After WWI, the British and French carved up the empire for themselves. They literally used a ruler to draw straight lines to divide territory. There was no consideration for ethnicities, language, existing borders, etc.
This is why Kurds are spread out across multiple countries, despite being close to one another geographically. If you look at a map showing where the majority of Kurds live, you can see the outline of a would-be country divided amongst its neighbors. Iraq was also a victim of this, with Sunnis and Shia Muslims having their own territories, but then were divided or combined for the benefit of the English and French.
The division of the Middle East was deliberate so European colonizers could pit groups against one another while they pillaged those countries. The same tactic was used with the caste system in India, so the British knew if they replicated that, they wouldn’t face any resistance.
They’re libertarian socialist.
I’ve seen some criticism of Rojava, specifically because they have private property rights, some Kurdish nationalist tendencies, and their status as sort of a US proxy. I don’t know enough about the situation to say how true that all is, though.
https://linestruggle.medium.com/on-rojava-and-the-western-left-bac1b858173e
https://mesopotamia.coop/rojava-the-formation-of-an-economic-alternative-private-property-in-the-service-of-all/
From what I gather, its mostly about having a decentralized organizational structure, which makes sense for a movement thats spread across three or more countries. Decentralized movements often lack the capability of coordinated action and seize opportunities but are much harder to kill off compared to centralized orgs.
Do you know if the Kurdish groups outside of Rojava follow Ocalan’s teachings? I was under the impression they do not.
The Kurds in Turkey sure do because he’s the leader of the PKK. Idk about Iraq. Its a touchy subject to say the Kurds in Syria follow Öcalan, since they swear no affiliation with the PKK.
I think this needs to be put in context as Kurds are a big ethnic group that has a very long history of pretty brutal oppression, especially given that the traditional Kurdish region spans across many borders so if you’re a Kurd in your ancestral lands in Iran - lol good luck, and if you’re a Kurd in Iraq - lol good luck, and if you’re a Kurd in Turkey - lol good luck.
I’m not sure where OP is but imagine if the Roma people had their own ancestral homeland that they have continually occupied which was pretty unified but which is also divided by modern European borders. There’s every chance that the Roma people would be like “Fuck this, we have been treated like dogshit (including being subjected to ethnic cleansing and genocide) and there isn’t a single state in Europe which is gonna look out for us so we need to look out for ourselves and create a Roma state” because it’s essentially exactly that for Kurds right now.
I’d say that Kurds are best understood as as existing in an internal colony within Iran, Syria, Iraq, and Turkey. With this in context I view Kurdish nationalism as being more aligned to national liberation than the uglier side of nationalism.
With that being said, the Kurds are not angels and there are troubling reports about Kurdish forces carrying out ethnic cleansing and even genocide. The problem is that governments, especially the Syrian and Turkish governments, are extremely hostile towards Kurds and the reports of ethnic cleansing are easily fabricated, exaggerated (e.g. non-Kurds who lived under ISIS fairly contently fleeing when Kurdish forces take a region because they don’t want to end up imprisoned for collaborating with ISIS or simply fleeing because a new salient has opened up where they live and they don’t want to get killed in the fighting), or they are distorted (e.g. masses fleeing ISIS or another force but the blame being pinned on Kurds for political reasons) so it’s difficult to really get a good grasp of what’s going on.
Ultimately Kurds are stuck in a shitty situation that has been foisted upon them by other political players and they’re doing what is in their interests so it’s hard to be unsympathetic towards them.
Are they being used as a splinter group to foment balkanisation in the region of the Levant by the US who seeks to destabilise and overthrow the Syrian government? Yep, at least historically.
Are they used as a tool by the US to keep Erdogan on a leash so that he doesn’t stray too far from Uncle Sam’s agenda, at the risk of them supporting Kurdish separatism and turning Turkey into a civil warzone/rump state? Yes.
If I were Kurdish and had the chance to shoot my shot for the opportunity of establishing a Kurdistan as a recognised state and distinct political entity, would I go for it? Yes.
If I were on the frontlines fighting against ISIS, a force that would absolutely exterminate Kurds if they are given the opportunity, and the US armed forces sought to broker a deal to coordinate attacks on ISIS and to provide support to my side, would I take them up on that offer? It brings me no joy to say it but yes, I would.
It’s a really messy, ugly situation and it has been this way for a very long time for the Kurds. They don’t have clean hands but when you’re fighting for survival you have to fight dirty.
Idk what to say. A balkanised Syria is bad news for the Syrian people and for the wider region but a strong, unified Syria is no guarantee for safety for the Kurds in any way. If Atatürk didn’t have an epiphany one day and decide “You know what? Fuck the Kurds!” then maybe things would be very different right now but as it stands the Kurds only have the safety that they fight for and maintain with their lives so Kurdish nationalism is understandable imo.
I agree that they seem to have just taken the US support as a massive attempt to both get their cause seen by more people (which is helpful in changing hearts and minds away from the “they are PPK and PKK are ‘terrorists’” which was how they were presented by even US propaganda). And to use the really good opportunity in the fight against ISIS to get any and all supplies they could from the US in order to keep their area defended for the inevitable attacks from Türkiye after ISIS. Though I am not sure how many weapons and other defense related items they were able to get (but supplies are supplies). They still need to make sure to walk the fine lines with the Syrian government to be sure.
The most fucked thing that they have been left with is the ISIS prisoners and their families. The longer that those massive numbers of people are left in limbo due to all the nations that they originated from not wanting to take them back. The worse shit will be when those folks break out of containment. Shit would be great to use by Türkiye especially as an excuse to “legitimately” invade. Which means brutal genocide of the Kurds from both sides. And if the open air prisons go on long enough, it will be easy for bad-faith actors to eventually paint them as doing what Israel is doing with Gaza/West Bank. Which isn’t what they are doing, but multiple generations of families being imprisoned (even if said prisons weren’t setup by the Kurds for that length of time in mind) for crimes against humanity that the new generation didn’t commit will be easy to use for propaganda.
The Kurds are resourceful, but trying to figure out how to allow people out without it turning into a bloodbath is beyond fucked. It might have been easier (and still beyond fucked) to have not taken prisoners and kill anyone and everyone that flew the ISIS flag before “victory” was claimed. They know that a majority of prisoners actively plan and openly speak about the torture and murder they will commit if they are able to get out. Which I imagine is what the long term goal of Türkiye and other hostile powers wish to make happen. The nations that want to keep their hands clean of bringing ISIS families back home to have to deal with are fine with Kurds being killed. Just like how the US and the West have done with green-washing themselves by pushing shit off onto “third world” nations.
I’ve gotten into countless screaming matches online with the people who supported the absolute bullshit about the Shamima Begum case, the “ISIS bride” who left the UK and joined up with ISIS before the UK stripped her of her citizenship.
At no point did I ever convince a single person who supported the UK government’s actions on the basis of:
Upholding international law that the UK is a signatory to
The fact that UK citizens are the UK’s responsibility and that they need to deal with them rather than exporting their problems to developing countries
That a country should not be able to take punitive actions against a citizen by decree without there being a fair judicial process where the accused has an opportunity to defend themselves against the charges and to be evaluated for stuff like their competence because this sets a dangerous precedent for anyone who cares about civil liberties
That Shamima Begum was literally a child who was groomed online and that she should be given leniency based on the fact that she was a stupid kid who made stupid choices
That the best way to make lifelong supporters of ISIS is to strip people of citizenship and mark them as international terrorists (despite there being no charges laid against Shamima in a court of law) so that they become completely dependent upon ISIS and have zero way to reintegrate into society because now they literally cannot enter any country ever again, so this act is one of the most supportive of ISIS and anyone who supports this act is directly aiding and abetting ISIS by creating the political consensus to make it a reality in the first place
That the second best way to make lifelong supporters of ISIS is to provide them with a person who is basically guaranteed to become their broodmare for the next 30 odd years
This was before it came out that she was smuggled to Syria by a Canadian intelligence agent btw.
We’re not talking hypotheticals here either.
This is yet-another example of actions by the US that just so happen to support ISIS. Between reports of the US military arming and training groups flying the SDF flag only to discover them a short time later fighting for ISIS and shifty things to do with abandoning weapons caches and funding sources in gulf states it’s enough to make me wonder if the US actually opposes ISIS or if it’s another Gladio type situation.
definitely this, america always does shit like this.
To add to this, the Kurds had their own territory under the Ottomans. After WWI, the British and French carved up the empire for themselves. They literally used a ruler to draw straight lines to divide territory. There was no consideration for ethnicities, language, existing borders, etc.
This is why Kurds are spread out across multiple countries, despite being close to one another geographically. If you look at a map showing where the majority of Kurds live, you can see the outline of a would-be country divided amongst its neighbors. Iraq was also a victim of this, with Sunnis and Shia Muslims having their own territories, but then were divided or combined for the benefit of the English and French.
The division of the Middle East was deliberate so European colonizers could pit groups against one another while they pillaged those countries. The same tactic was used with the caste system in India, so the British knew if they replicated that, they wouldn’t face any resistance.