he clearly says that workers should have ownership stake in companies, which is not a capitalist sentiment
It absolutely is though. Partnerships have been a thing since pretty much forever, and a lot of publicly traded companies and some private companies hand out company stock as part of compensation. Employees owning stock isn’t socialism, it’s capitalism, and the goal is for employees’ interests to be more aligned with the company’s so overall profitability is higher.
Sanders is approaching it from an employee outcomes perspective, but it’s still very much from a capitalist mindset.
He’s not advocating for companies to be run democratically like they would under socialism, he’s advocating for more profit sharing without meaningfully changing ownership.
I agree that giving alienable voting shares to workers isn’t anti-capitalist. It becomes anti-capitalist when the voting rights over management and corporate governance are inalienable meaning they are legally recognized as non-transferable even with consent.
Here is a talk by people involved with Bernie Sanders politically about how all companies should be democratically controlled by the workers: https://youtu.be/E8mq9va5_ZE
Sure, and many capitalists support socialist ownership structures within an otherwise capitalist system.
I’m pretty supportive of laissez faire capitalism (with caveats; I consider myself a left-leaning libertarian), and I also agree that worker co-ops are a great idea in many cases. The important thing, to me, with capitalism is that profit motive drive the decision making process in a competitive market. Sanders seems to largely agree, he just wants more of that profit to make its way to the workers.
Socialism (generally speaking, I know socialism is a big tent), seeks to eliminate both the profit motive and competitive markets, seeing both as waste. From what I know of Bernie Sanders, he’s not on board with that view of socialism, he just wants the average person to be better off.
Democratic worker co-ops are postcapitalist, but are also non-socialist because they are perfectly compatible with markets and private property. I’m suggesting that Sanders is authentically anti-capitalist, but he conflates his anti-capitalism with being socialist in a category error and thus buys into a false dichotomy.
All firms must be legally mandated to be worker coops on classical liberal inalienable rights theory grounds
Worker co-ops are socialist, because the workers literally own the means of production. In fact, I argue they’re about as pure as you can get with socialism, since there’s no government getting in the way so it could theoretically exist in a stateless society.
Being compatible with capitalism does not preclude something from being socialist.
Worker co-ops don’t necessarily involve the workers owning the means of production as worker cooperatives can lease means of production from third parties. Who owns the means of production doesn’t determine which legal party is the firm. The firm is a contractual role determined by the direction of the hiring contracts.
A market economy where all firms are legally mandated to be worker co-ops is not capitalism
A country where worker coops aren’t legally mandated is illiberal because it violates workers’ inalienable rights. It denies workers’ private property rights over the positive and negative fruits of their labor.
The government is already involved in the legal structure of firms, so I don’t see how a worker co-op mandate could be considered as more government involvement. It seems to me like different government involvement
A country where worker coops aren’t legally mandated is illiberal because it violates workers’ inalienable rights. It denies workers’ private property rights over the positive and negative fruits of their labor.
That’s not true. Workers also have a right to exchange their labor for a paycheck. That’s what employment is, you exchange your rights to the fruits of your labor for a steady paycheck. That way you don’t have to worry if the fruits of your labor becomes less valuable, you only have to worry about the paycheck.
If workers truly want to own the entirety of the fruits of their labor, they can start their own business. That they don’t want that level of risk is why we have a separation between owners and employees.
It absolutely is though. Partnerships have been a thing since pretty much forever, and a lot of publicly traded companies and some private companies hand out company stock as part of compensation. Employees owning stock isn’t socialism, it’s capitalism, and the goal is for employees’ interests to be more aligned with the company’s so overall profitability is higher.
Sanders is approaching it from an employee outcomes perspective, but it’s still very much from a capitalist mindset.
He’s not advocating for companies to be run democratically like they would under socialism, he’s advocating for more profit sharing without meaningfully changing ownership.
I agree that giving alienable voting shares to workers isn’t anti-capitalist. It becomes anti-capitalist when the voting rights over management and corporate governance are inalienable meaning they are legally recognized as non-transferable even with consent.
Here is a talk by people involved with Bernie Sanders politically about how all companies should be democratically controlled by the workers: https://youtu.be/E8mq9va5_ZE
Sanders supports worker co-op conversions
@noncredibledefense
Sure, and many capitalists support socialist ownership structures within an otherwise capitalist system.
I’m pretty supportive of laissez faire capitalism (with caveats; I consider myself a left-leaning libertarian), and I also agree that worker co-ops are a great idea in many cases. The important thing, to me, with capitalism is that profit motive drive the decision making process in a competitive market. Sanders seems to largely agree, he just wants more of that profit to make its way to the workers.
Socialism (generally speaking, I know socialism is a big tent), seeks to eliminate both the profit motive and competitive markets, seeing both as waste. From what I know of Bernie Sanders, he’s not on board with that view of socialism, he just wants the average person to be better off.
Remember: anti-capitalism ≠ socialism
Democratic worker co-ops are postcapitalist, but are also non-socialist because they are perfectly compatible with markets and private property. I’m suggesting that Sanders is authentically anti-capitalist, but he conflates his anti-capitalism with being socialist in a category error and thus buys into a false dichotomy.
All firms must be legally mandated to be worker coops on classical liberal inalienable rights theory grounds
@noncredibledefense
Worker co-ops are socialist, because the workers literally own the means of production. In fact, I argue they’re about as pure as you can get with socialism, since there’s no government getting in the way so it could theoretically exist in a stateless society.
Being compatible with capitalism does not preclude something from being socialist.
Worker co-ops don’t necessarily involve the workers owning the means of production as worker cooperatives can lease means of production from third parties. Who owns the means of production doesn’t determine which legal party is the firm. The firm is a contractual role determined by the direction of the hiring contracts.
A market economy where all firms are legally mandated to be worker co-ops is not capitalism
@noncredibledefense
Sure, but one where all firms happen to be worker co-ops is. The difference is how much the government gets involved.
A country where worker coops aren’t legally mandated is illiberal because it violates workers’ inalienable rights. It denies workers’ private property rights over the positive and negative fruits of their labor.
The government is already involved in the legal structure of firms, so I don’t see how a worker co-op mandate could be considered as more government involvement. It seems to me like different government involvement
@noncredibledefense
That’s not true. Workers also have a right to exchange their labor for a paycheck. That’s what employment is, you exchange your rights to the fruits of your labor for a steady paycheck. That way you don’t have to worry if the fruits of your labor becomes less valuable, you only have to worry about the paycheck.
If workers truly want to own the entirety of the fruits of their labor, they can start their own business. That they don’t want that level of risk is why we have a separation between owners and employees.