Why not just use electric stove/heater/whatever? That way you’re using something that’s both cleaner, safer, and make more sense to nationalise if it haven’t.
For stoves, inductions are becoming the de-facto gold standard.
Don’t give the gas propagandists the time of day on this issue - gas stoves have been strategically pushed as an effort to keep gas infrastructure installed across the U.S by the gas lobby.
As someone who lives where the power goes out if the wind sneezes during an ice / heavy wet snow storm, there’s reasons to have non electric sources for both cooking and heat.
Generator only lasts so long as you have gas for it, but yes. Been begging the landlord for one, our well pump is electric so when we lose power we lose water too.
Sure, wood furnaces can be a good option here to not have any dependency on neither the delivery of electricity nor gas. Food that can be eaten without needing to be heated is also good from a preparedness perspective, and a trail stove is also a good idea.
There are times where storms are so bad here that power is out for a considerable amount of time and it’s brutally cold. Relying on electric is a non starter, people would literally die from exposure.
For most of the country it’s fine, but not for places that get deadly cold.
Wood furnaces are nice but not every place has one. My place does not.
VT is often colder than murmansk but less cold than the other two cities listed. Note the freedom units: -40 is the same as metric but -20F is more like -30C. Apparently -20C is only -4F? Which is not that cold but a common temp in VT.
I don’t think vermont is on its own grid? We import a substantial amount of electricity from Quebec hydropower and most of our electricity is from renewable sources including our own hydropower, solar and wind.
I thought so. But power issues can happen anywhere in extreme weather especially if lines aren’t buried.
What my state and Texas have in common is we were both at once time independent republics before we joined the union. And my states pre USA independence lasted longer than the confederacy!
Although electric is great and can be self generated by things like solar panels.
Not everyone an afford to convert a working appliance to an electric powered version. If I were to replace my boiler today for example I’d have to pay about $40,000-$60,000 USD for parts and labor. Eventually I will but I’ll have to plan and budget for it.
There is also something to be said about reducing the waste of switching out working appliances for different fuel sources. If the goal is the help the environment, then it might be more beneficial to use the appliance until it reaches end of life. Especially of the components are hazardous or not easily recyclable.
If something needs to be replaced, then we can advocate for electric appliances. But it’s wasteful and perhaps unreasonable to replace something that is in great condition and has years of life left in it.
Also, there could still be legitimate uses for natural gas like for a generator incase of power outages.
At the end of the day, the point of this post is simply that utility companies should be a service for the community and not run for profit.
electricity is comically expensive compared to gas for heating, I understand that some places don’t consistently get to -40 every winter, but many places do.
Heat pumps are popular in VT where it does go down to -40 somewhat regularly. Most places still have a backup heat for the really cold days - either wood stove and/or oil.
I’m on oil (and a renter so it’s not like I have a choice) but a friend of mine is on a heat pump and loves it. She has backup heat too, a wood stove and I believe either heating oil or gas. But most of the time she runs the heat pump and the wood stove.
I have electric so if the power goes out it fucks up the climate control. in the winter it’s not so bad because our building gets very warm without any heating, but in the summer its killer because you need AC running 24/7 for it to even be habitable, and sometimes you need extra on top of that.
Yeah, sounds like opposite environments. If you want to prep for that, you can buy a battery operated fan from one of the tool companies (dewalt, Milwaukee, etc) plus one or more of the larger batteries and then put it in front of a window with a tub of water and have the fan blow air from outside over the water into the house and it will cools things down.
I have one in Wisconsin, and this last week has had a few exceptionally cold days. Those days, the heat pump doesn’t go at all, but most days, it does.
Here’s what the usage looks like over the past week:
Dark red is the furnace, light red is the heat pump. Green line is outdoor temperature, and you can see we’ve had some wild swings over the past week. Yellow line is the 71F inside temp. You can see that even on a 25F day (Dec 6), it was predominantly using the heat pump. That tends to be a fairly typical temperature in a Wisconsin winter most of the time.
Fwiw, heat pumps are not comically expensive in operation. They also work in the north of Sweden, so I’m sure that any issues with low temperature operations have been hammered out by now.
I understand that installation can be prohibitively expensive in some markets still though, but this is a problem that can hopefully be addressed.
Sweden has some of the cheapest electricity in all of Europe thanks to all that hydro.
This year my final electric bill was ~ 25 c/kWh. Gas was ~ 8c/kWh (both after distribution costs, and funnily enough for electricity I pay amongst other things a fee to subsidize other people’s solar panels’ negative impact on the grid).
Not “comically expensive” but to be cost-effective a heat pump must average a COP of at least 3.1 (which is possible in most climates with a decent enough HP), so it’s not yet a “jump on it first chance you get” kinda deal because it will take many years to recoup the initial investment. And people remember last year’s winter where the electric costs were more than doubled; gas prices tend to fluctuate much less. This makes heat pumps even more of a very long term investment for people who can afford very large surprises in their power bill… Or who have excess PV generation capacity in the winter (that requires a very large house).
Gas is on the way out but all the political sabotage of electricity prices in Europe (nuclear phaseout, asinine financial regulations and fake competition with useless middlemen, misfiring PV legislation meaning PV owners are being subsidized by everyone else, etc.) means it will take a very long time before HP costs drop enough for people flock to replace their existing gas heater with a heat pump.
Yeah, but gas heat still requires electricity, so that argument is not a great one, though repeated often.
Plus you can add a generator and reverse that advantage, as well as batteries. If you have an EV with a large battery that allows power out, that can be used as a good short-term solution.
An issue for sure, but one that can be remediated by the distributed nature of local renewable production and energy storage - something that gas by its nature cannot do.
-40 sounds insane. There are very few major cities with such cold temperatures. Outside of such extreme locations, heat pumps are very competitive to gas heating if not simply cheaper.
Why not just use electric stove/heater/whatever? That way you’re using something that’s both cleaner, safer, and make more sense to nationalise if it haven’t.
For stoves, inductions are becoming the de-facto gold standard.
Don’t give the gas propagandists the time of day on this issue - gas stoves have been strategically pushed as an effort to keep gas infrastructure installed across the U.S by the gas lobby.
Just got an induction stove and I can’t even begin to communicate how much better it is than gas and especially old style electric stoves.
As someone who lives where the power goes out if the wind sneezes during an ice / heavy wet snow storm, there’s reasons to have non electric sources for both cooking and heat.
Gas pipes freeze too.
Wouldn’t it be better to have a generator or something? That way you can cook still, and power other things, like a heater if you need it.
Generator only lasts so long as you have gas for it, but yes. Been begging the landlord for one, our well pump is electric so when we lose power we lose water too.
Yeah, except central heating need the fan running to be effective, which is electric… So gas heat doesn’t even work without power.
Sure, wood furnaces can be a good option here to not have any dependency on neither the delivery of electricity nor gas. Food that can be eaten without needing to be heated is also good from a preparedness perspective, and a trail stove is also a good idea.
There are times where storms are so bad here that power is out for a considerable amount of time and it’s brutally cold. Relying on electric is a non starter, people would literally die from exposure.
For most of the country it’s fine, but not for places that get deadly cold.
Wood furnaces are nice but not every place has one. My place does not.
How cold is your place relative to Murmansk, Yakutsk or Oymyakon?
I don’t know how cold those places are but I live in VT in the mountains where it does go down to -20F on the regular and -40 occasionally.
See climate sections of Murmansk, Yakutsk and Oymyakon.
VT is often colder than murmansk but less cold than the other two cities listed. Note the freedom units: -40 is the same as metric but -20F is more like -30C. Apparently -20C is only -4F? Which is not that cold but a common temp in VT.
Let me guess, The only state with its own power grid?
I don’t think vermont is on its own grid? We import a substantial amount of electricity from Quebec hydropower and most of our electricity is from renewable sources including our own hydropower, solar and wind.
Our grid goes down because trees fall on it.
That was a jab at Texas I believe.
We often have power availability issues because it’s detached from the grid and neglected for several years.
I thought so. But power issues can happen anywhere in extreme weather especially if lines aren’t buried.
What my state and Texas have in common is we were both at once time independent republics before we joined the union. And my states pre USA independence lasted longer than the confederacy!
Hawaii and Alaska also exist
Although electric is great and can be self generated by things like solar panels.
Not everyone an afford to convert a working appliance to an electric powered version. If I were to replace my boiler today for example I’d have to pay about $40,000-$60,000 USD for parts and labor. Eventually I will but I’ll have to plan and budget for it.
There is also something to be said about reducing the waste of switching out working appliances for different fuel sources. If the goal is the help the environment, then it might be more beneficial to use the appliance until it reaches end of life. Especially of the components are hazardous or not easily recyclable.
If something needs to be replaced, then we can advocate for electric appliances. But it’s wasteful and perhaps unreasonable to replace something that is in great condition and has years of life left in it.
Also, there could still be legitimate uses for natural gas like for a generator incase of power outages.
At the end of the day, the point of this post is simply that utility companies should be a service for the community and not run for profit.
This. Reminds me of the cash for “clunkers” debacle that took plenty of perfectly good ICE used cars off the market.
Especially this.
Fair point. Though my point here is swapping appliances is easier and better in every way than to nationalise a utility company.
But then i guess i also over-analysed a meme 🙈
electricity is comically expensive compared to gas for heating, I understand that some places don’t consistently get to -40 every winter, but many places do.
Heat pumps are popular in VT where it does go down to -40 somewhat regularly. Most places still have a backup heat for the really cold days - either wood stove and/or oil.
heat pumps are great and i love the idea, but for places where it gets really cold your right that backup heat is still required.
I’m on oil (and a renter so it’s not like I have a choice) but a friend of mine is on a heat pump and loves it. She has backup heat too, a wood stove and I believe either heating oil or gas. But most of the time she runs the heat pump and the wood stove.
I have electric so if the power goes out it fucks up the climate control. in the winter it’s not so bad because our building gets very warm without any heating, but in the summer its killer because you need AC running 24/7 for it to even be habitable, and sometimes you need extra on top of that.
Yeah, sounds like opposite environments. If you want to prep for that, you can buy a battery operated fan from one of the tool companies (dewalt, Milwaukee, etc) plus one or more of the larger batteries and then put it in front of a window with a tub of water and have the fan blow air from outside over the water into the house and it will cools things down.
Doesn’t work when outside is humid.
I have one in Wisconsin, and this last week has had a few exceptionally cold days. Those days, the heat pump doesn’t go at all, but most days, it does.
Here’s what the usage looks like over the past week:
Dark red is the furnace, light red is the heat pump. Green line is outdoor temperature, and you can see we’ve had some wild swings over the past week. Yellow line is the 71F inside temp. You can see that even on a 25F day (Dec 6), it was predominantly using the heat pump. That tends to be a fairly typical temperature in a Wisconsin winter most of the time.
its picking u some slack that’s for sure. are hydro rates fair out there?
Water is $0.0046/gal.
lol…canadian/american language barrier. we call electricity hydro here. that’s what i mean to say. sorry.
Gotcha.
Wisconsin only has a tiny fraction of hydro power. Mostly natural gas, followed by coal:
https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=WI#tabs-4
We have solar on our roof, though obviously that’s very limited in the winter.
deleted by creator
Fwiw, heat pumps are not comically expensive in operation. They also work in the north of Sweden, so I’m sure that any issues with low temperature operations have been hammered out by now.
I understand that installation can be prohibitively expensive in some markets still though, but this is a problem that can hopefully be addressed.
Sweden has some of the cheapest electricity in all of Europe thanks to all that hydro.
This year my final electric bill was ~ 25 c/kWh. Gas was ~ 8c/kWh (both after distribution costs, and funnily enough for electricity I pay amongst other things a fee to subsidize other people’s solar panels’ negative impact on the grid).
Not “comically expensive” but to be cost-effective a heat pump must average a COP of at least 3.1 (which is possible in most climates with a decent enough HP), so it’s not yet a “jump on it first chance you get” kinda deal because it will take many years to recoup the initial investment. And people remember last year’s winter where the electric costs were more than doubled; gas prices tend to fluctuate much less. This makes heat pumps even more of a very long term investment for people who can afford very large surprises in their power bill… Or who have excess PV generation capacity in the winter (that requires a very large house).
Gas is on the way out but all the political sabotage of electricity prices in Europe (nuclear phaseout, asinine financial regulations and fake competition with useless middlemen, misfiring PV legislation meaning PV owners are being subsidized by everyone else, etc.) means it will take a very long time before HP costs drop enough for people flock to replace their existing gas heater with a heat pump.
the other problem is that the electricity is less reliable than the gas (currently here).
Yeah, but gas heat still requires electricity, so that argument is not a great one, though repeated often.
Plus you can add a generator and reverse that advantage, as well as batteries. If you have an EV with a large battery that allows power out, that can be used as a good short-term solution.
An issue for sure, but one that can be remediated by the distributed nature of local renewable production and energy storage - something that gas by its nature cannot do.
-40 sounds insane. There are very few major cities with such cold temperatures. Outside of such extreme locations, heat pumps are very competitive to gas heating if not simply cheaper.
Welcome to North Dakota friend. :(
Welcome to VT. We have heat pumps but also backup heating sources.
-50 mean in Oymyakon in january. -67.7 record low.
Yes I totally understand that there are cold places on earth, but I feel like few here understand the meaning of the term major city./s
More seriously I am sure that 90 percent of the world’s population lives in areas where heat pumps are the most efficient method of heating/cooling.
Yes.
-40 regularly? Yes, sounds like Yakutsk.