Vanity/Morality/Desire/Influence/Knowledge/Imagination/Conciousness/Sense Organs/Present Environment
“Vanity of vanities; all is vanity.” - Solomon.
“Morality is the basis of things, and truth is the substance of all morality.” - Gandhi.
If morality serves as the basis of vanity, then I think the basis of morality is desire; the basis of desire is influence; the basis of influence is knowledge; the basis of knowledge is imagination; the basis of imagination is our sense organs reacting to our present environment, and the extent of how concious we are of this happening.
“The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination.” - Albert Einstein
The more open ones mind is to foreign influences, the more bigger and detailed its imagination can potentially become. It’s loves influence on our ability to reason that governs the extent of our compassion and empathy, because it’s love that leads a concious mind most willing to consider anything new (your parents divorcing and upon dating someone new your dad goes from cowboy boots only to flip flops for example). Thus the extent of its ability—even willingness to imagine the most amount of potential variables, when imagining themselves as someone else; and of how detailed it is. This is what not only makes knowledge in general so important, but especially the knowledge of selflessness and virtue. Because our imagination needs to be exercised by let’s say reading books or imagining yourself in someones shoes as a couple examples.
When one strikes us accross the cheek, and we stike back in retaliation, we appeal to the more instinctive, barbaric mammal within all of us. But when we lower our hand, and offer our other cheek in return, we appeal to the logical, reasonable thinking being within all of us instead.
I think the only evidence needed to prove my claim made in the title is to use the “skin” that holds the wine of the knowledge of everything we’ve ever presently known as a species: observation. If we look at our world around us, we can plainly see a collection of capable, concious beings on a planet, presently holding the most capacity to not only imagine selflessness to the extent we can, but act upon this imagining, and the extent we can apply it to our environment, in contrast to anything—as far as we know—that’s ever existed; God or not.
What would happen if the wine of our knowledge of morality was no longer kept separate from the skin we use to hold the knowledge of everything else: observation, and poured purely from the perspective of this skin? Opposed to poured into the one that its always been poured into, and thats kept it seperate at all in the first place: a religion. There’s so much logic within religion, that’s not being seen as such because of the appearance it’s given when it’s taught and advocated, being an entire concept on what exactly life is, and what the influences of a God or afterlife consist of, our failure to make them credible enough only potentially drawing people away from the value of the extremes of our sense of selflessness—even the relevance of the idea of a God or creator of some kind; becoming stigmatized as a result.
There’s a long-standing potential within any consciously capable being—on any planet, a potential for the most possible good, considering its unique ability of perceiving anything good or evil in the first place. It may take centuries upon centuries of even the most wretched of evils and collective selfishness, but the potential for the greatest good and of collective selflessness will have always have been there. Like how men of previous centuries would only dream of humans flying in the air like the birds do, or the idea of democracy.
“We can’t beat out all the hate in the world, with more hate; only love has that ability.” - Martin Luthing King Jr.
“Morality is the basis of things, and truth is the substance of all morality.” - Gandhi
“Respect was invented, to cover the empty place, where love should be.” - Leo Tolstoy
"Never take an oath at all. Not to heaven (God and an afterlife), or Earth (humans)…Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ (regarding these influences); anything more than this comes from evil (a worry, a need, a fear for oneself; a selfishness, i.e., a religion). - Jesus, Matt 5:33
“The hardest to love, are the ones that need it the most.” - Socrates
Love the circular logic of a drug addled mind failing to present a logical flow of ideas. In this case your Christian religion is the drug and you clearly have not escaped without suffering mental damage.
I’m not religious. In fact, what’s being stated above is the opposite of what a religion would advocate—to hold it as unquestionably true, opposed to true but not that it’s no longer up for question, and considered what’s called “infalliable” or no longer capable of error.
Now that I’ve put forward plenty of evidence to support my claim, would you be willing to be the first person after days of posting different opinions regarding the same general topic, to give legitimate reason as to why I’m wrong? Opposed to only insulting me and passing off what I have to say (which is what people like Socrates, Leo Tolstoy and Gandhi had to say—these men were far from “drug addled,” they also seen religion from my same perspective) as “stoner pontification,” as an example.
Consider shedding the hate that’s clouded your mind and thats led you to be so close minded, and allow love (your sense of selflessness) to clear it up, only leading you to consider the new knowledge or foreign influences that would undoubtedly lead your imagination to become even more powerful and detailed than it already is.
You haven’t presented any evidence, it’s observations and personal opinions.
So you’re saying people like Socrates, Leo Tolstoy, Gandhi etc didn’t present any evidence? And what they had to say isn’t worth considering therefore? Because again, the evidence they put forth based off their observation, is the same as mine.
The evidence I present is there, if you would read what I have to say to understand it—opposed to not even bothering with it at all and assume it’s nothing but stoner this or drug addict that—then that’s what we would be talking about right now.
What do you think things like the Big Bang Theory are? Scientific theory, based purely off our ability to observe the world around us. Not to mention philosophy. Why do you bother with anything on this sub then? All you’ll ever find is almost exactly what you just said: personal opinions based off observation.
What makes my personal opinions based off observation any different? I don’t know why I even bother to ask, because you’ll either not reply, or just chalk it up to pontification, despite pontificating to any degree absolutely not something that’s no longer worth considering, not by any means.
Hand picked quotes of ancient philosophiers is not evidence. For example another thing Socrates said is:
“The virtue of a man is to govern, and the virtue of a woman is to manage the household.”
Therefore by your definition this is evidence that a women that is unable to maintain a household is worthless.
What you’ve done is find quotes that agree with your observations. Ultimately, this is all confirmation bias.
You made no attempt to challenge your own assertions. When I did so, you immediately demanded I prove you wrong, shifting the burden of proof as Aristotle may have called it.
I’m clearly not merely quoting ancient philosophers; especially considering Jesus, Gandhi, and MLK are amoungst them.
You’re only referencing the standards and societal norms of the day. 2+2 is still 4 regardless who says it and who they happen to be underneath; responding to hate and evil with equal parts love and goodness is more logical, regardless if it’s Jesus or Hitler saying it.
Challenging ones own assertions is a huge emphasis of what I have to say: “to never take an oath at all.” And you didn’t challenge my assertions at all, you did nothing but label them and consider them useless as a result.
My argument still stands. You have no idea what your refuting because you haven’t even bothered with what’s being refuted yet; resulting to you walking into contradiction after contradiction. I still have no idea that you have any idea what I’m talking about.
If you believe Jesus is more than a philosopher, you are a Christian.
By your logic, Ukrainians should respond to Russianms invasion with love and goodness. That’s has never worked.
Bullies don’t stop being bullies because you love them. This isn’t a lifetime movie.
By the way if you’re looking for more evidence check out my post: Socrates, The Story of Jonah, and Jesus.
Never said I did, and it takes far more then that to be considered a Christian to Christians, depending on which type of Christian you’re asking of course. (There’s 35-40 thousand different types to ask apparently)
It worked in gaining India’s independence, amoungst other examples. Things like the idea of Democracy were also seen the same way as you’re seeing our capacity for selflessness now, and returning good for evil done specifically.
“The hardest to love are the ones that need it the most.” - Socrates. Based off my 10 years experience working with them, I can tell you you’re absolutely wrong in ever way in that regard. And it’s less about getting them to stop being a bully, and more about teaching others the relevance of resisting the selfish barbarian within all of us when met with what we hate, to find alternative solutions our inherent ability to logic and reason shows us; like collective love opposed to collective hate, that only ever leads to more hate.
I’m not sure that I understand what you’re saying, but I’d like to respond once I have a confirmed understanding. Is this an accurate rewrite? I feel like kind of a dick doing this, but I hope it’s welcomed
The Foundation of Morality, Selflessness, and the Logic Within Religion
Vanity, Morality, and the Chain of Influence
“Vanity of vanities; all is vanity.” – Solomon
“Morality is the basis of things, and truth is the substance of all morality.” – GandhiIf morality is the foundation of human behavior, then what underpins morality itself? Here’s a proposed chain of influence:
- Morality is rooted in desire,
- Desire stems from influence,
- Influence arises from knowledge,
- Knowledge depends on imagination,
- Imagination is shaped by our sense organs reacting to our present environment,
- And all of this depends on how conscious we are of these processes.
The more open-minded we are to outside influences, the richer and more detailed our imagination becomes. Love plays a key role here—it influences our reasoning, compassion, and empathy. A loving mind is more willing to consider new perspectives (e.g., a divorcé changing his identity after finding a new partner). This openness enhances our ability to imagine ourselves in someone else’s shoes and understand their experiences.
Instinct vs. Reason: A Choice Between Barbarism and Logic
When someone strikes us, retaliating appeals to our primal instincts—the “barbaric mammal” within us. But choosing not to strike back—offering the other cheek instead—engages our higher reasoning and self-control. This choice reflects the logical, compassionate side of humanity.
Observing Humanity’s Unique Potential
If we observe humanity objectively, we see beings capable of imagining and acting on selflessness to an extraordinary degree—far beyond any other known species. Whether or not one believes in God, this capacity for selflessness is unique and profound.
What if we stopped separating morality (traditionally associated with religion) from observation (associated with science)? What if we viewed morality through the lens of observation alone? Religion often presents morality in terms of divine influence or an afterlife, but this framing can alienate people. By failing to make these ideas credible or relatable, religion risks stigmatizing concepts like selflessness or even belief in a higher power.
The Potential for Good Amidst Evil
Humanity has always had the potential for immense good because of its ability to perceive good and evil. Even after centuries of selfishness or suffering, this potential remains—just as humans once dreamed of flying or creating democracy before achieving them.
As Martin Luther King Jr. said: “We can’t beat out all the hate in the world with more hate; only love has that ability.” Love—and by extension selflessness—is humanity’s greatest strength.
Key Takeaways from Wisdom Throughout History:
- “Morality is the basis of things, and truth is the substance of all morality.” – Gandhi
- “Respect was invented to cover the empty place where love should be.” – Leo Tolstoy
- “Never take an oath… Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more comes from evil.” – Jesus (Matthew 5:33)
- “The hardest to love are the ones that need it most.” – Socrates
In summary, humanity’s capacity for selflessness is unparalleled. By combining observation with moral reasoning—and grounding it in love—we can unlock our greatest potential for good.
Wow, I’m speechless, this is fantastic. Genuinely, thanks for taking the time to write this up, it makes me feel fully understood, and “healing begins when you begin to feel heard.” So thanks for that honestly.
I’ve been talking to a lot of pastors about this for the past few years, so I guess I end up wrongly assuming that people will understand things like the “skin and wine” reference I guess you can say, for example.
I almost asked if you’re a pastor lol.
I’m glad you like it!
And ultimately what I’m trying to say here, is that ironically, the people that would be seeing the psychology and sociology within religion, by seeing the words and the logic they connotate as nothing but that—aren’t. Because again ironically, the people that see the value and potential to it, aren’t teaching it along with the way people like even Jesus advocated for it to be taught: to never see anything man made as unquestionably true. To see things as true, of course, but never where it’s no longer up for question, and that it’s no longer capable of error.
Obviously a big claim regarding Jesus, but it makes perfect sense if you consider the extent “oath-taking”—I like to call it—divides us. Whether it be the division between nations all the way down to things like racism or slander and collective hate. And if you consider the potential of the opposite, of the masses being taught to never be lead to feel as though they would kill, harm, hate, or be iniquitous in general for the sake of any man made thing—or to always be re-examining their life as Socrates put it, then I can’t help but to think this would undoubtedly hold the most potential for unity, in contrast to any amount of the opposite.
Personally, I feel that morality is a spook but, for the sake of discussion, I’m just gonna speak about it as if it’s not.
Morality is rooted in desire, which stems from influence, knowledge, imagination, and sense perception.
I appreciate the empiricist take, but this chain of influence feels a bit too reductive. While sensory perception and imagination certainly play roles in moral reasoning, this seems to ignore the evolutionary and social dimensions of morality. This is understandable to do if you’re religious, but I find it incomplete when framed through empiricism. Moral Foundations Theory suggest that moral instincts (e.g., care/harm, fairness/cheating) evolved to address group survival challenges. If we stop at desire, I can see how that could account for morality’s deep ties to communal needs and power structures, but glossing over this and boiling it down to sense perception seems too narrow. Is this what you meant regarding psychology and sociology?
Choosing not to strike back—offering the other cheek instead—engages our higher reasoning and self-control.
I think this framing creates a false binary between instinct and reason. You may have had a particular context in mind here, but the context matters too much to not specify. For marginalized people facing systemic violence, self-defense or resistance isn’t “barbarism”—it can be a necessary act of survival or even, arguably, a moral imperative. While self-control can be virtuous in some cases, retaliation isn’t inherently immoral; it depends on the circumstances. I assume you can agree with this, as your core thesis seems to be a utilitarian one rather than deontological
Humans exhibit unparalleled selflessness due to their ability to imagine others’ experiences.
This feels anthropocentric, which I understand, if you’re religious, but altruism exists in many non-human species—primates share resources, elephants mourn their dead, and dolphins help injured peers. While humans have unique capacities for abstract reasoning, selflessness isn’t exclusive to us. Moreover, even human altruism often has roots in reciprocal benefits or social expectations.
What if we viewed morality through the lens of observation alone?
I’m confused about your goal/purpose with this. Is your primary argument that people ought to utilize religious frameworks for morality, or that they don’t need to? Or something else? It seems to me that you raise a good argument for secular ethics, but I get the feeling you didn’t intend to.
Love enhances moral reasoning by fostering openness and empathy.
Framing morality as love is sweet, and nice to read, but moral decisions often involve competing values—like justice or autonomy—that can conflict with love. Additionally, centering love risks excluding those who struggle with traditional notions of empathy due to trauma or neurodivergence.
Hey I just wanted to let you know I’m going to be taking the time with your comment at some point either today or tomorrow. I’m sorry for the delay I’ve been too busy. And I want thank you for taking the time at all, can’t tell you how much I appreciate it.
Okay!
To add a little more context to something I glossed over…
I’m an amoralist/“psychological egoist” (in quotes because it’s a problematic term). I do everything in my own self interest, but helping others and being a person who does ‘good’ things makes me feel good, so I’m a therapist, anarchist activist, and vegan.
I believe that everyone, like me, is internally ‘selfish’, acting exclusively in their own self-interest (though they may not realize it) and may externally appear selfless.
I also don’t believe in “free-will”
So this is purely a theoretical discussion for me, as we’re talking about something I don’t believe in
