- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/24394554
Text for readability:
So far, Americans using RedNote have said they don’t care if China has access to their data. Viral videos on TikTok in recent days have shown Americans jokingly saying they will miss their personal “Chinese spy,” while others say they are purposefully giving RedNote access to their data in a show of protest against the wishes of the U.S. government.
“This also highlights the fact that people are thirsty for platforms that aren’t controlled by the same few oligarchs,” Quintin said. “People will happily jump to another platform even if it presents new, unknown risks.”
Honestly the Fediverse needs to realize that decentralizing has consequences for the user experience. The average user is confused by the idea that there are multiple instances of a single community, for example realizing that there is a /c/AskLemmy on multiple instances can be really confusing, especially for lay people who aren’t technically inclined.
Even for those that aren’t intimidated or confused, it can still be frustrating to not have a centralized community, and there can be diminished value from not having all the users in one centralized place, e.g. if you ask your question on one instance and it doesn’t reach a bunch of users because of defederation and fracture between different instances, the truth is your question isn’t really going out to Lemmy but instead some smaller subset of Lemmy users. This dilutes the usefulness of that online community in a lot of cases - there is less content, fewer interactions, etc.
Ultimately people are only going to sacrifice so much, they may be thirsty for a platform that isn’t run by oligarchs, but the Fediverse doesn’t seem to offer feature parity for most people, as we saw with the failed migration of users to Mastodon after Elon Musk acquired Twitter.
Isn’t the same on Reddit? How do people know what is the best community between /r/Games, /r/Gaming, ,/r/VideoGames, /r/TrueGaming?
It is known for instance than /r/Canada isn’t as good as /r/OnGuardForThee , but that is something that people have to figure out too.
Yes, and I think Reddit has struggled to gain the same number of users as other social media platforms - their UI is more challenging for a lot of people, and the experience of trying to find communities can be frustrating and confusing. It’s a good point, but I still found it fairly easy to find the main subreddit for a given community based on the activity going on. My point about fractured instances is that you don’t have something like two /c/Gaming communities that don’t overlap in users at all due to defederation. On Reddit a user is on a single instance with all the communities in one place. On Lemmy you have to find not just the community but also the instance that community is on (or an instance that federates with the instance the community is on). All of these extra steps are even more complicated, and remember Reddit’s interface was already confusing for lots of people.
It is the same here. A community that would be on a defederated instance (like Beehaw’s community) are always less active than communities on generally federated instances like LW, Lemm.ee or SJW
Sure, but depending on how fractures are created in the future, navigating which instances are federated together and where to be is itself complicated. I don’t think even the idea of “instances” is something most users are going to easily grok. It sets us up to have trouble receiving and retaining users.
Except this isn’t the case at all, evidently.
I doubt they care at all who runs the platform they use (again, evidently), they just want the addictive dopamine hit these apps are designed to constantly provide (the vast majority of people didn’t leave fb or twitter because of zuck or musk, they left because something more addictive and personally tailored thanks to even more intrusive and manipulative algorithms came along). Honestly, the idea that this migration is fuelled by any anti-rich/anti censorship sentiments (neither of which is met by rednote) is completely ridiculous.
Otherwise I agree, the fediverse can be hard for people to pick up, which is a shame, but I think those who genuinely do want to get away from oligarchs, the state, and their censorship, rather than just keep swiping (or whatever you do on tiktok/rednote) for their dopamine, are much more likely to actually make the small effort it requires to figure it out.
Not everyone has the same situation.
Sure, some people have every opportunity to research and learn about alternatives, but the number of those people are much fewer than the number of people busy raising kids, holding down jobs, etc. This idea that users are mostly idiots who are addicted to the algorithm is highly reductive, it actually adopts the cynical mindset of the capitalists trying to manipulate people (that users are just marks, idiots to be exploited, deserving of their exploitation). It’s honestly surprising to see how much hatred people have for the average user here, considering to my mind Lemmy is meant to be a non-profit, community-driven alternative to corporate apps like Reddit. You would think that mindset would come with some understanding that the users are the victims and that blaming them misses the point. Lemmy is not a perfect alternative to Reddit, as I made my point above, so blaming the users feels a bit delusional to me, and honestly quite convenient to the desires of the oligarchs, which is to ignore social, economic, and otherwise structural inequalities and manipulations and instead focus on the failings of individuals (in this case users) to not exceed their circumstances.
Maybe I’m just old but the concepts are no harder than irc or Usenet. It’s been around forever.
I think my mom would find IRC and usenet very difficult to get into using, for example. Being old doesn’t mean it’s accessible or understandable to people. Even worse, the young people (like “Gen Z”, as much as I hate to use generational thinking) seem to be less tech-literate than Gen Y, so lots of the relevant user base are not going to navigate these things even if they seem simple to a lot of us. Just the curse of expertise I guess (where you forget what it was like before you knew things, how intimidating it all was, etc.).
That’s also a feature though. If I want to ask “should I risk snuggling myself into another state (in the USA) in order to get an abortion - what if someone finds out?”, then I don’t want the opinions of the Alt-Right (or the Alt-Left either), bc… I am not insane?
Also, isn’t Lemmy far less fractured than Mastodon?
yes, the bug is a feature in some sense, but it’s still also a bug 😅
Do you know how big Lemmy is compared to Mastodon? I actually know much less about Mastodon, I just never could use anything like Twitter, trying to fit my thoughts into so few characters was futile (and yeah, maybe that’s a me problem, but still). Anyway, just completely speculating that if Lemmy is newer and smaller it might not have had the same opportunity to develop the same animosities and fractures, but at this point I’m literally making up fictions.
Blaze answered with the stats, but I’ll add some interpretation. Mastodon’s biggest problem is lack of feature parity (it seems to me, who has literally never used it, or X even when it was Twitter, so take this one with a huge grain of salt), but Lemmy’s problem is different, relating more to lack of content. Which in turn relates to lack of moderation tools across instances and willingness and ability to block trolls.
It’s not just that Lemmy is newer and smaller, it’s that it works differently than Mastodon: here we have “thoughts”, like Star Trek or Star Wars or LOTR or using Linux btw, and so we go to where we can enjoy those thoughts. Or rather, we go to different rooms where we can enjoy discussing those thoughts. In those rooms, when we get barraged by extremist content e.g. from the Alt-Right, the Alt-Left, or just Alt-Alt, then we leave that room, and have little desire to ever return - after all, why would we? (How much fecal matter is okay to be in your soup?) This makes the same content that is here less worthwhile for us to want to consume, for the same reason that Musk’s constant Xcrements taint people’s experiences on that platform. The rest of the content is fine - but why put up with the bad along with the good when you don’t have to receive either, and you can instead just text individual people that you know irl, read a book, watch TV, touch grass, and basically enjoy life without having to ever walk back into that Nazi bar again?
So taking a stab at it: Mastodon is too fragmented, while Lemmy is perhaps the exact opposite? At least, I almost walked away from Lemmy entirely as a result of this effect (in fact I somewhat did - I am talking to you from not from Lemmy but from a newer alternative to it called PieFed, although tbh it’s not fully ready for mass distribution yet, but it’s coming along so exceedingly nicely!:-), and Blaze and so very many others of us here have mentioned similar thoughts in needing to block much of the existing content here in this Nazi bar space. Which leaves even less content for us to consume, as well as somewhat reduced desires to contribute as well, knowing what kind of backlash in the comment section usually results whenever we do (is 100 positive upvotes worth one negative comment? what about 200 upvotes but the comment is REALLY bad? there is a line somewhere, but TLDR: toxicity discourages discussions).
And the above thought helps explain why echo chambers exist: as an evolutionary feature - survival of the social media platforms that have it - they work, up to a point (after which they fall apart, most especially upon touching real life).
Does this perspective help? TLDR: I want 100% of all the diversity of opinions, so long as they are offered in good faith, but I can brook zero of the bad-faith crap, and too much of the latter just causes most people to nope out, rather than find a way to stay and cope.
43k monthly active users:
Mastodon has 850k:
However due to the community vs microblogging format, Lemmy can feel more active than Mastodon
Thank you, that is a huge difference in terms of size. Still not sure my speculation is useful even with that fact, but I do think size and scale will influence how complicated and fractured instances will be.
Lots of bots and bots-only instances on Mastodon as well
Maybe there should be a library of all the communities that have matching names and goals, so that an app can present them as one group with all the posts and comments merged as if it was just the one community.
The app would need some smarts so as to de-duplicate posts etc.
Not sure people want to see a merge between !politics@lemmy.world and !usa@lemmy.ml
Hehe. Hence the table / index that links similar communities with some intelligence.
The issue is that someone would have to manually identify is the communities are similar or not.
Personally I find it more productive to just consolidate similar communities, like !television@lemmy.world to !showsandmovies@lemm.ee recently
A semi-unified view is sorta what you get when instances are federated with one another, not that communities with the same name get unified but at least both communities’ posts show up in one place. But the problem is even if you solve those problems, you still have instances that will defederate over differences in moderation policies and politics, etc. - ultimately a given set of instances will still always be a fractured subset of all the Lemmy instances. Maybe with enough people in a set of instances this wouldn’t be a problem, but you have to find a way to get that many people to show up and stick around, and you have to keep those instances playing nice with one another and not falling apart like Mastodon instances did when a huge number of people migrated. People bring drama and overwhelm these smaller communities which are maintained by volunteers running servers and moderating. Ultimately what you see is that people just quit, and there is no stability - and then users leave and don’t come back.
It’s just not a model for gaining and retaining users, tbh.
If someone gets confused about two different places with the same name existing then, frankly, they are not good enough to join lemmy to begin with. They’d just lower the quality of the platform, and i say that as someone who doesn’t contribute all that much myself.
sure, I can understand that concern, but I think there are plenty of users who might need better UI/UX for so many different reasons (thinking of disabilities like dyslexia, etc.) that have nothing to do with the quality of the content they would bring.
My point is that users bring content and activity, and that is why people ultimately want to join and stick around in an online community. Not every person who finds the Fediverse confusing is “not good enough” - I just hard disagree with you, there are plenty of good people with useful and entertaining things to contribute who would be more likely to if there weren’t barriers. Regardless, this attitude is exactly what I think undermines the Fediverse, it’s arrogant and alienating. Lemmy shouldn’t be just for the technologically privileged, websites in general should be accessible to people of all kinds and perhaps online communities especially. What’s the point of a community-built social media alternative if we reject most humans who would make up that community?
There is a community here dedicated to a specific influencer. Not going to give the name to avoid brigading, but they’ve been around for almost a year now, and are able to use the platform.
They came here when their subreddit got banned, and as Lemmy is similar enough to Reddit, they just were able to continue their discussions here. They acknowledge themselves that are aren’t definitely the most technical users.
Might be easier for a particular subreddit to move (the same thing happened with /r/196 when they got banned, they moved to Lemmy), and in that case I don’t think the problems I described matter as much because the social activity is already centralized to that one community. But that’s a rather niche situation, most users are not dedicated to a single subreddit or community and they want to consume content from a variety of places.
My point was more than as bad as the Lemmy UI is said to be, it’s still close enough to Reddit so that non technical users can just move here and not be lost
I pretty much agree with the UI itself being fairly close to Reddit, and I think a Reddit user wouldn’t find it too complicated to move here and be able to comment and post. My critique isn’t as much that aspect of Lemmy’s UI (which I think is impressive and pretty great), but more about the way federation can be confusing and thus alienating to users. The user experience (UX) overall is much worse in the Fediverse for lay users who are expecting this to be a typical centralized social media site.
They can ignore the federation aspect and still use the site. You see quite a few people here not even knowing what their instance is. For them Lemmy is just their Lemmy mobile app and that’s it