While I agree wholeheartedly that the world needs to cut down on meat consumption, I do NOT agree with forcing it on somebody involuntarily. In some places, especially some parts of the US, cheap meat is often the only way for people to survive, and they do not have access to all the non-meat products they would need to completely replace every nutrient.
Being successfully vegan and maintaining health is a privileged thing in the US. Our food economy is centered on meats, salt, sugars, and fats which are cheaply available everywhere.
Legumes, beans, veggies are always more affordable than meat. Cheap meat is generally considered to be bad for your health - at least in Europe, probably the same over in the US. Beans, rice, some veggies as a garnish go a long way, are super healthy and balanced, and are cheap to boot.
It really isn’t about privilege. It’s just about having your priorities straight. If you don’t care about animal welfare, well fine - no point in trying to force something on you because it’s usually a lost cause anyway. But people going about their day claiming they’re “animal lovers” and could never hurt an animal but then being omnis or vegetarians are just straight up hypocrites.
Change is hard. Being told you’re wrong about something or doing something immoral that you’ve grown up being told is fine is hard. But some people just need to be faced with the cruel, abusive, torturous, deadly reality that is animal AG. They won’t know the truth any other way.
I have a labor intensive contracting job. I also have a very high metabolism and am skinny as a rail. I cannot afford the 10 bags of beans or rice a day I would need to maintain at least 3000-3500 calories a day. If I tried that, I would literally die. I’ve done it before for a year. A whole year of weakness and sickness and extreme weight loss, and I couldn’t tolerate it anymore. I get bulk things like cheap Costco boxes of hamburger patties and stuff like that, which I CAN afford. I am well aware of animal suffering. You don’t have to tell me again and again that my existence is fucked up, because I know.
In the US, fresh veggies are more expensive than energy-dense fatty proteins.
What the heck are you even talking about right now?
You don’t think you could hit your macros with lentils? High protein, high fiber, calories for days. Throw in something like coconut oil and you’re gold. I only discovered lentils in the last few years since, yeah they don’t sound appetizing and are considered “poor people” food. Turns out they are great for you, delicious, cheap, and full of protein. I’m just mad it took me so long to find out about them.
Look - you love meat. It’s easy. We get it. But lets not pretend you couldn’t get the equivalent nutrition from other sources.
You do you, dude. There’s a bunch of vegan lifters who easily manage 3000cal a day and disprove your theory. I’m sure they’re not spending a fortune on food.
If I can manage a vegan diet with a minimum wage job with 20h/week (800-1000€ per month), I’m pretty sure you should too. But again, I don’t live in the US and don’t know the prices over there.
I have a buddy doing his Master’s in Arizona, moved from Ghana, who manages fine with veganism. Might be state-dependent, I guess.
Nobody with any sense will argue with you that veganism isn’t a better and morally superior diet than meat, but trying to push this as an individual responsibility issue is doomed to failure.
It’s the same problem as convincing people to change their diets to lose weight or be healthier in general - it’s hard to get people to be satisfied with an entirely different diet than what they’re used to and you won’t guilt them into it. The vegetable-based meat alternatives that are being produced are the best possible way to wean people onto vegan diets, but the companies that are producing them care more about profiteering than trying to undercut meat costs despite the touted savings in production costs.
Seriously trying to get people onto more vegan diets should involve way less pressure on individuals and more concerted effort on eliminating government meat subsidies and holding businesses in the vegetarian/meat alternative space to account for being more concerned with profitability than their “mission”.
Unless the subject is being brought up, nothing’s gonna change at all. Food has become such a taboo subject that it’s just not being talked about especially if it involves uncomfortable truths like animal AG.
Change doesn’t happen on its own. It needs momentum, it needs people talking about it, it needs people arguing about the pros and cons. Jack’s gonna change if we don’t talk about it and participate in discussions and arguments.
If even one person rethinks their actions upon reading one of my comments, I’m content. But shushing people and not letting them even mention the subject at all is stupid imo. And sometimes it needs some convincing from our side to get the message across.
I’m not telling anyone what to do. I’m not guilt tripping anyone. I’m just stating facts that anyone who consumes animal products should know of. It’s up to you make it happen.
Considering the state of the world and its impending doom in light of the climate catastrophe, the least we can do is go vegan. It’s what takes the least amount of politics to make at least somewhat of an impact. Economies of scale, supply and demand and what not. But sure - “no pressure”.
I’m not saying no pressure. I’m saying you’re applying the pressure in the wrong place. You will not succeed at an individual level. You need to push for systemic change if you’re serious about it. Electric car adoption isn’t increasing because individuals are getting greener - economic incentives are aligning to make it a better decision. Veganism will have to follow the same path, and the longer it takes to start addressing the real things that will make a difference, the longer the problem will continue.
You want an example of effective action? Start by pushing politicians in your country to end or reduce government subsidies for meat production that artificially keep prices low. Push candidates for office to start initiatives that will build future successes, like encouraging introduction of meat alternatives in school lunches and nutritional programs so you’re building an educational foundation for the future instead of relying on guilt, shame, and bullying. Pressure producers of successful vegan food products to stop relying on the willingness of the current vegan community to overpay for products and encourage them to lower prices to competitive levels as a moral imperative.
These are all things that will make a real difference in the short and long term. Arguing on the internet with individuals won’t.
20 hrs a week would be doable. But not my current of 50-60 hours of often hot, backbreaking labor dragging ladders and tools and equipment up into the ceiling and back all day.
While I agree wholeheartedly that the world needs to cut down on meat consumption, I do NOT agree with forcing it on somebody involuntarily. In some places, especially some parts of the US, cheap meat is often the only way for people to survive, and they do not have access to all the non-meat products they would need to completely replace every nutrient.
Being successfully vegan and maintaining health is a privileged thing in the US. Our food economy is centered on meats, salt, sugars, and fats which are cheaply available everywhere.
Legumes, beans, veggies are always more affordable than meat. Cheap meat is generally considered to be bad for your health - at least in Europe, probably the same over in the US. Beans, rice, some veggies as a garnish go a long way, are super healthy and balanced, and are cheap to boot.
It really isn’t about privilege. It’s just about having your priorities straight. If you don’t care about animal welfare, well fine - no point in trying to force something on you because it’s usually a lost cause anyway. But people going about their day claiming they’re “animal lovers” and could never hurt an animal but then being omnis or vegetarians are just straight up hypocrites.
Change is hard. Being told you’re wrong about something or doing something immoral that you’ve grown up being told is fine is hard. But some people just need to be faced with the cruel, abusive, torturous, deadly reality that is animal AG. They won’t know the truth any other way.
I have a labor intensive contracting job. I also have a very high metabolism and am skinny as a rail. I cannot afford the 10 bags of beans or rice a day I would need to maintain at least 3000-3500 calories a day. If I tried that, I would literally die. I’ve done it before for a year. A whole year of weakness and sickness and extreme weight loss, and I couldn’t tolerate it anymore. I get bulk things like cheap Costco boxes of hamburger patties and stuff like that, which I CAN afford. I am well aware of animal suffering. You don’t have to tell me again and again that my existence is fucked up, because I know.
In the US, fresh veggies are more expensive than energy-dense fatty proteins.
What the heck are you even talking about right now?
You don’t think you could hit your macros with lentils? High protein, high fiber, calories for days. Throw in something like coconut oil and you’re gold. I only discovered lentils in the last few years since, yeah they don’t sound appetizing and are considered “poor people” food. Turns out they are great for you, delicious, cheap, and full of protein. I’m just mad it took me so long to find out about them.
Look - you love meat. It’s easy. We get it. But lets not pretend you couldn’t get the equivalent nutrition from other sources.
Thanks for chiming in. Appreciate it.
You do you, dude. There’s a bunch of vegan lifters who easily manage 3000cal a day and disprove your theory. I’m sure they’re not spending a fortune on food.
If I can manage a vegan diet with a minimum wage job with 20h/week (800-1000€ per month), I’m pretty sure you should too. But again, I don’t live in the US and don’t know the prices over there.
I have a buddy doing his Master’s in Arizona, moved from Ghana, who manages fine with veganism. Might be state-dependent, I guess.
Nobody with any sense will argue with you that veganism isn’t a better and morally superior diet than meat, but trying to push this as an individual responsibility issue is doomed to failure.
It’s the same problem as convincing people to change their diets to lose weight or be healthier in general - it’s hard to get people to be satisfied with an entirely different diet than what they’re used to and you won’t guilt them into it. The vegetable-based meat alternatives that are being produced are the best possible way to wean people onto vegan diets, but the companies that are producing them care more about profiteering than trying to undercut meat costs despite the touted savings in production costs.
Seriously trying to get people onto more vegan diets should involve way less pressure on individuals and more concerted effort on eliminating government meat subsidies and holding businesses in the vegetarian/meat alternative space to account for being more concerned with profitability than their “mission”.
Unless the subject is being brought up, nothing’s gonna change at all. Food has become such a taboo subject that it’s just not being talked about especially if it involves uncomfortable truths like animal AG.
Change doesn’t happen on its own. It needs momentum, it needs people talking about it, it needs people arguing about the pros and cons. Jack’s gonna change if we don’t talk about it and participate in discussions and arguments.
If even one person rethinks their actions upon reading one of my comments, I’m content. But shushing people and not letting them even mention the subject at all is stupid imo. And sometimes it needs some convincing from our side to get the message across.
I’m not telling anyone what to do. I’m not guilt tripping anyone. I’m just stating facts that anyone who consumes animal products should know of. It’s up to you make it happen.
Considering the state of the world and its impending doom in light of the climate catastrophe, the least we can do is go vegan. It’s what takes the least amount of politics to make at least somewhat of an impact. Economies of scale, supply and demand and what not. But sure - “no pressure”.
I’m not saying no pressure. I’m saying you’re applying the pressure in the wrong place. You will not succeed at an individual level. You need to push for systemic change if you’re serious about it. Electric car adoption isn’t increasing because individuals are getting greener - economic incentives are aligning to make it a better decision. Veganism will have to follow the same path, and the longer it takes to start addressing the real things that will make a difference, the longer the problem will continue.
You want an example of effective action? Start by pushing politicians in your country to end or reduce government subsidies for meat production that artificially keep prices low. Push candidates for office to start initiatives that will build future successes, like encouraging introduction of meat alternatives in school lunches and nutritional programs so you’re building an educational foundation for the future instead of relying on guilt, shame, and bullying. Pressure producers of successful vegan food products to stop relying on the willingness of the current vegan community to overpay for products and encourage them to lower prices to competitive levels as a moral imperative.
These are all things that will make a real difference in the short and long term. Arguing on the internet with individuals won’t.
20 hrs a week would be doable. But not my current of 50-60 hours of often hot, backbreaking labor dragging ladders and tools and equipment up into the ceiling and back all day.