I will no longer be able to assist with development nor debugging actual issues with the software… Quite juvenile behavior from the devs. It stemmed from this issue where the devs continuously argued in public by opening and closing an issue. Anyway, thought I would keep y’all apprised of the situation, since these are the people maintaining the software you are currently using.
Informative, and unfortunate.
100% agree with your take on the original issue - it should be a discussion between the devs, not edging along the lines of an argument. However, I do feel like the discussion would have been better suited to the dev Matrix chat or something
Even if they were upsetted by your comments, banning you was not the right way to handle that IMO.
Just do it like other projects - tag it as enhancement, postpone it forever, be done with it. And in case it’s a useful enhancement, you can see the votes accumulating on the issue and maybe really reconsider implementing it?
Looks like snowe missed the fact that each of those close/reopens were months apart, so it’s clear the issue would ge re-opened, still not addressed after many many months, then closed to clean up the backlog, then re-opened because it actually still has value.
Snowe it seems interpreted this as two people fighting and not just normal stuff that happens on giant repos with many devs.
What he did wrong was comment about behaviors/edicit on a PR, which is not the appropriate place to have that convo.
PR comments are for talking about the PR, not for having meta convos about comments on PRs.
I don’t even participate in this repo, but I can say that snowe was off topic here.
However the owner’s reaction of a whopping seven day ban and “learn your lesson” comment was also abrasive and unreasonable.
Both sides fucked up here, get ya’lls shit together and apologize to each other yo.
You are correct. I didn’t notice that the comments were quite far apart. I was sent that issue by concerned members of my community and I kinda rushed in and commented.
Snowe it seems interpreted this as two people fighting and not just normal stuff that happens on giant repos with many devs.
correct, but it was not simply based on that one Issue. It was based on months of watching their interactions with the community.
PR comments are for talking about the PR, not for having meta convos about comments on PRs.
Then where do you have those conversations? (also it wasn’t a PR, it was an issue) The conversations are about the code and about the decision making process around the code. They belong in a permanent store (not chat) where the decisions can be referenced. Would you recommend creating another separate issue to have the conversation?
I don’t even participate in this repo, but I can say that snowe was off topic here.
I can agree that my second comment was off-topic, but the first comment clearly discussed why the issue should be left open.
However the owner’s reaction of a whopping seven day ban and “learn your lesson” comment was also abrasive and unreasonable.
Honestly that wasn’t the part that frustrated me. It was the no response no warning part of the interaction that was insulting. How am I supposed to know whether they marked my comment off-topic because I commented on the closing of the Issue or because they just didn’t want to talk to users about the problem? How was I supposed to know that I was even going to get a ban (I didn’t even know you could ban people and I have over a hundred repos on GH) for continuing to comment? And finally how was I supposed to even know that the ban was temporary? All the lack of communication did was lead to me making this post. If I had known it was only 7 days I probably wouldn’t have done anything at all. Just let it pass, as waiting a week to respond is nothing in OSS land.
Both sides fucked up here, get ya’lls shit together and apologize to each other yo.
I’ve already talked to Dessalines about it. Not sure what to do about Nutomic.
Well yeah the second comment didn’t really had to be, but hey it’s certainly not really reason enough to ban someone from the repo. The first comment I think is totally ok (as well as marking it off-topic, but optimally with an answer, probably marked as off-topic as well). Just keep an issue (it’s not a PR) open, until the issue is resolved in one way or the other i.e. either solved reasonably via a third-party client (with links to it) or directly in the repo, asking the community (when it’s not obvious that the issue is resolved), whether this is resolved, wait for reactions, and close it after some time based on that. Banning someone, or quickly closing or not reopening after a carefully written argument, that the issue is not solved etc. is just childish behaviour, especially for a community focused project (I’m watching a few lemmy issues on GH).
or quickly closing or not reopening after a carefully written argument
Thats where I think the misunderstanding was, if you look at the dates, many of the closings happened months after the issue was opened and no one posted anything on it, so it would clearly look to be a stale issue, so its reasonable to give a quick “Im closing this because of x” comment.
Often in those cases the person is doing a bunch of cleanup and has to close dozens of stale issues, so writing a multi paragraph response on every single one is a lot of time to put into it.
Then later the issue is re-opened again because it actually isnt stale, it just looks stale, and the cycle repeats as it continues to sit on the backburner.
This is all very normal on any larger project, its pretty common to see issues get closed and re-opened if they are very low priority and sit on the backburner for literally years, and its common to see they have a bunch of short “Im closing this because x” responses as a result.
But, if you look at the dates, you go "Oh, I see, these comments are months apart and not even really a “convo” but more just documentation.
misunderstanding was
I think here’s a misunderstanding too :). With quickly I mean closing without getting feedback, or without providing a good reason why the issue is closed (without being obviously resolved), not the dates (which I think are only relevant, when actually awaiting a response). I have seen this over the repo a few times, good writeups often explaining some behavior etc. and then bam closed, either as duplicate (although it’s not (example)), or “not as planned” etc. I think this is not good behavior for an open source project (I’m around the block for a few years contributing and maintaining OSS, for reference…). Especially as this is a real community project and not some random opinionated application (well depending on how you define it, could be true to lemmy, but I don’t think it is…)
I rather let an issue open than close it, “just to have fewer open issues”. I can close it anytime, and if someone searches for that issue sees it closed while it isn’t resolved, it just creates confusion…
I think that you should update your post with information that this ban is only for 7 days.
This:
I will no longer be able to assist with development
suggests that ban is infinite, which is not true.
Yeah but if you were in this position would really want to contribute again? It’s virtually an indefinite ban when the reason is this absurd.
Yes, If I would contribute to lemmy, I wouldn’t do it for the devs, but for the software and its users.
EDIT: But don’t think that I support nutomic’s reaction to OP’s comments.
Screw that. The devs are a key component in a software project.
By the way, it’s “its* users”.
Where do you see that information? I didn’t even know it was possible to do this until last night so not sure how I’m supposed to know how long it lasts.
Sorry, I assumed that github shows it to you somehow. I know about it from nutomic’s comment
thank you, yes I their comment later on. No, github didn’t even tell me I was banned. I happened to notice because I left the tab open and was moving through them trying to find something else.
Fork! Fork! Fork!
Quite juvenile behavior from the devs.
The constant closing and reopening the issue was a bit weird but I didn’t really see any hostility or toxic behavior, except from you getting pissy about it out of nowhere.
Are you actually /banned/ front participating on GitHub? That seems really petty.
Hmm, where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, on PCSX2.
Your time and talent is better spent elsewhere. Don’t even think about this any longer.
You wanted to help and they acted in this way. You made yourself clear, so it’s on them to reevaluate.
Your time isn’t free, so don’t spend it on stupid people. I know you’re passionate and want to help, but sometimes it unfortunately comes down to this.
As a frequent user of pcsx2, what’s the drama there?
Dude, who in their right mind would add scheduling infra to a client like that? 😆 I’m going to need these Lemmy devs to have a tad bit more experience before they start being so dismissive, especially to someone who’s just trying to help.
Hi there more experienced person, would you mind explaining the intricacies of the madness for a lowly n00b?
Is it just 'cause it’d need the client to be constantly running to output the scheduling? So like, you set it to schedule a post and then you have to actually open it as an app before it would actually work if it wasn’t running in the background when the time ticked over? Is there more to it? Any and all details you’d be willing to explain would be appreciated.
Regardless, I hope you have a lovely day and best of luck with everything you’re doing!
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I have GIMP and Photoshop installed and have at all times for well over a decade. I literally only use GIMP and I use it nearly every single day. Photoshop does some fancy stuff that GIMP isn’t as good at, but as far as basic image editing? Give me the lightweight FOSS client with a sleek minimalist UI that’s been the same for ages over some bulky corporate offering that loves to move things around and change its appearance just to look new.
I agree that Lemmy is a mess, but GIMP is the wrong target for this post. It’s fantastic.
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I’m not kidding anyone. I might not have the same needs or standards as you do, but I absolutely do prefer GIMP and use it over Photoshop. Yeah, there are limitations. I didn’t say it was a better program. Yes, it can be kind of annoying to have to make changes to text. And yes, if your work flow requires you to have these tools it probably isn’t a solution for you.
But frankly, people don’t all need to do things the same way. I’m sure you’re capable of producing something that looks better than much of my output in half the time and have a much more efficient workflow. Cool. But that doesn’t mean I’m some kind of imaginary non-person because I actually enjoy using GIMP.
Why on Earth does that make you angry? It’s literally not even any of your business.
If I used a different kind of paintbrush than you, would that matter? Literally who cares?
Krita sounds cool and I’ll probably check it out, but chances are very good that I continue to use GIMP in addition to whatever else I might find useful simply because I like it and I’m comfortable with it.
Why in the world should that make anyone angry? It’s okay for people to like different things.
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I edit photography and for serious work, I agree with you. The FOSS lover in me really, really wanted to like GIMP but I find myself just having it there, taking space most of the time. For light work and simple touch up work GIMP is fine, but if I already have Ps or hell, even Lightroom fired up, then I might as well used those for quick fixes as they exist closer or are part of my regular workflow. Guess the issue seems to come down to if you are willing to pay for the software. If one wants to spend $0, or one has light-use needs, then the use case for GIMP increases. But if you need more professional software, then you are likely to just pay for the industry standard for the extra features.
That is not to say that GIMP is useless, which is what I think some people may be thinking. I have been meaning to look at Krita, if only due to curiosity for a while. So thanks for reminding me.
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I mean, personally, I make a lot of layers and save my work a lot, and I make use of the undo/redo stack. Again, like, it isn’t perfect, but I used to do pixel art in the Palace editor. Like, maybe my standards just aren’t very high.
I’ve been working on game assets using GIMP and it’s been totally sufficient. But like, maybe Krita could add to my workflow. I’m not opposed to the idea of tuning my work flow to get better results. I do have concerns about spending excessive time learning new environments for only marginal benefit considering how wide my net has to be, but if it’s a big time saver it might be worth it.
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Just an all round juvenile behaviour from the devs. Would expect a project like this to be more properly managed.
This is ridiculously petty from the devs, and does make me seriously wonder about Lemmy’s future.
Idk if they care about a particular thing FOOS devs are often petty. I don’t think it’s actually a threat to the project. Like read unix mailing lists from Linus or whoever else, it can get downright toxic. e.g.:
"BULLSHIT. Have you looked at the patches you are talking about? You should have - several of them bear your name. […] As it is, the patches are COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE. […] WHAT THE F*CK IS GOING ON? " here
I think Linus gets away with a lot because the value Linux delivers is pretty out of this world.
Being rude to people trying to contribute in good faith seems like a way to send them to a competitor and if one exists, that doesn’t bode well for the project.
Opening an issue that is a feature request is hardly a contribution, especially if there are few full time devs it might be a distraction more than a contribution, and there is like 1 open source competitor.
Ideas are free, finished working code is expensive, if the devs think they can’t get to it in the next N years they probably just don’t want to see it.
As I said I don’t buy how this would be an actual problem, maybe it’s rude but who cares, the admin is essentially an end user demanding something, at the end of the day he can write it himself or stfu. The devs time will certainly be spent better almost anywhere else than arguing on a GitHub issue.
Did you look at the subject at hand? It wasn’t a feature request, it was an a bug issue that had been opened by the programming.dev admins back when there were issues with the instance not federating. It seems to me like OP was providing context(after the issue was mysteriously resolved) and the Lemmy dev lost his cool.
The one linked by snowe above and is the cause of this is on a feature request but its not a feature request made by snowe, its one made by dessalines.
All of snowes comments got collapsed due to getting marked as off topic which seems to be making people think hes dessalines when thats another lemmy dev
Snowe in the thread explaining it
The bug report is a different thing from this (although now snowe cant comment on that thread due to being banned and everything there and in some other spots such as a pull request I was making are also marked as off topic). Probably will get resolved by dessalines based on dessalines comment but weve got Pangora being built up as well
Sorry, which account is yours?
The inflammatory one
What’s inflamatory about it? Genuine question.
Idk I think y’all are a bit too dramatic lol. Imho you’re reading too much into a small aggression. This has nothing to do with the future of Lemmy or anything as grandiose as that
nothing to do with the future of Lemmy
Let’s not go that far. That said, it’s certainly not everything to do with it either. Let’s call it an indicator and keep an eye on it.
This has nothing to do with the future of Lemmy or anything as grandiose as that
I didn’t say it did. I mentioned that it would affect me, the person who runs the server you’re commenting on. That’s it.
I was referring to other commenters, mb should’ve been clearer about it
It is certainly becoming a pattern. Similar upsets around both moderation and database optimization.
Hey bud when was the last time you went outside for a walk in nature and talked to someone in IRL? Because you seem to have created the most useless drama for yourself.
In in real life lol?
Did I stutter?
You kept posting offtopic comments which added nothing to resolving the issue. So I gave you a seven day ban, hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
You want to teach a lesson? The only lesson you’re teaching here is that you’re a twat. You get some hardheaded opinion on someone’s suggestion, refuse to listen to anything else, and ban them for explaining themselves. Grow up.
Yeah this guy is acting as if he’s a programming god who created something nobody could. This instance is called programming.dev, filled with programmers who know a little something about this programming thing. I’m a 15yoe self taught data engineer, and if I understand one thing, it is that anybody can learn programming and become great at it. I’m always proud of my code, but I never think my code is perfect. Programming and technology as a whole is constantly evolving, and what was clever/genius/wizardry yesterday is obsolete tomorrow. The only asset to a programmer is to be able to always learn new stuff, because there is always new stuff and better ways to do what you did in the past. I don’t even give detailed directions to my interns because I want to see if they do things in a different way that is better than the way I usually do things.
15yo
bedtime for you, kid
15yoe-> 15 years of experience
nah im sticking with it. Programming.dev lemmys are like Shitjustworks lemmys if ya let them talk for too long
chill out, gamer
The comments read like you banned the dev for making a telling point in favor of reopening the ticket.
The lesson I take away is that your ego is more important to you than improving Lemmy.
The issue was already open. I gave a temporary ban for posting pointless complaints which added nothing to resolving the issue.
Talk it out. Slamming a ban on a contributor it’s just immature and damaging
Quite the ego you have there, I bet you’re fun at parties.
Projects fail when developers alienate their contributors. Grow up and act like an adult.
Are you 12?
It’s a psyop to make .ml look bad
It’s really effective then, lol.
You demonstrated that you are unaccountable. It’s a lesson for anyone considering investing in this project, indeed.
common nutomic WCan you point us to these comments so we avoid the same fate? Or perhaps contribution guidelines so we understand what to do or not do? I’ve never seen anyone banned for good faith contributions in OSS before.
I tracked down the PR in the screenshot and it seems pretty innocuous.
They’d point you at the code of conduct link found in the very GitHub repo this incident concerns, but then you would realize how many of their own rules they’ve violated.
I admit I didn’t look before asking to see if they had one. Just took a look and good god. How can Lemmy devs be so crunchy and inclusive with how they want the community to operate and yet be so abrasive on GitHub? Wild shit.
Reopening the same issue multiple times after it getting closed is a dick move. The contributer was pretty clear about the reasoning why. You are just wasting people’s time with feature requests like that.
you’re misreading the situation. Dessalines (one of the creators of lemmy) opened an issue asking for feedback on a feature. Nutomic (the second creator of lemmy) immediately closed the issue, with no feedback and no discussion. Dessalines opened it again (for good reason, there was no discussion on the topic) and then nutomic closed it again. This continued several times. I then commented about why the feature was useful, and also gave feedback as to why the issue shouldn’t be closed. This was then marked off topic so that my comment wouldn’t be seen (since it made nutomic look bad). I commented again and was immediately banned, no warning, explanation, or discussion, continuing the trend of one of the main lemmy devs not knowing how to work on a major OSS project.
My first comment directly discusses the issue at hand. It wasn’t off topic. It’s clear you didn’t want any feedback on the issue because it makes you look bad. I explicitly talked about how client side scheduling is a bad idea that does not accomplish the goal of scheduling. And then I gave feedback directly concerning the exact issue I was commenting on of how your conduct was unfitting of lead devs of a major software project, where you squabbled in public in a really weird way, and you refused to even think about discussing the topic (closing the issue over and over again when your coworker had opened it and asked for discussion? Really dude?). Then you finally banned me without any warning or discussion of why.
And no, it’s not going to teach me any lesson, all it did was teach the entire community you have no clue how to run an open source software project. No warning, no explanation, just juvenile marking of comments as off topic (they weren’t), closing of the issue your main dev opened and then boom banned.
My comment about scheduling in clients was from January and that option was already discarded by dessalines on the next day. No use in rehashing the same thing ten months later. All you are doing is creating pointless notifications for everyone. I know its not ideal to close and reopen an issue, but really why is it a big deal? We closed hundreds of issues recently which were outdated, invalid or already fixed. I accidentally closed one that still needs to be implemented and dessalines reopened it, so everything is fine. Certainly not a “squabble”, and your comments added nothing at all.
Its true that I shouldnt have given a warning first, but most likely you would have responded with another offtopic complaint so I didnt see any use in that. If you want to complain then do it somewhere else, not on the issue tracker which is meant for getting work done.
You marked all his comments in the federation bug issue off-topic, but none of them seem off topic and give you details which you quote and respond and even ask follow up questions for. How is it anything other than being petty to mark those comments off-topic?
Youre right, my mistake. Ive manually unhidden all his comments, except those in #234.
Thank you
This isnt the first time Nutomic has reacted in such a egotistical way, especially when someone points out a flaw in the software. I’ve seen a few issues that were actual issues with the software–not feature requests–that he’s closed and dismissed. One of the issues were mine. He definitely needs help with maintaining the software but I dont know how he expects anyone to help with the way he’s been acting.
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And yet, I don’t know of a better project. Growing, maintained projects will usually get better over time (take major refactors, when being modular, rewritten parts of it etc.). But yeah growing needs to have a healthy and friendly Community Code of Conduct, and that I am more concerned of…
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Really?
Mastodon. Firefish. KBin. Pleroma. Pixelfed.
Like, every other instance type on Activitypub. Lemmy doesn’t work better than any of them, it’s just more geared toward community discussion (KBin aside). What Lemmy prospers from isn’t just the project itself, but the communities that happen to have attached themselves to it.
Mastodon - not a link aggregator, tree-threaded, kbin hmm PHP (yuk) and mostly one contributor and by far not as feature rich as lemmy. The rest similarly as Mastodon is not close to reddit as lemmy is.
And yes ActivityPub grows with multiple projects, but I mean specifically something like lemmy or kbin and something that can be a reddit replacement of sorts. There’s a little bit more happening than just ActivityPub behind the scenes btw. And it’s still no small feat to have a platform like Mastodon or lemmy (I think those two are the mostly the forerunners by now). Sure it’s not super complex, but the amount of features are often underestimated by a lot of people (as far as I can read here and often somewhere else, so why is there no real alternative to lemmy yet…?)
Yeah, I mean, that’s fair. I do obviously prefer the discussion format or I’d be off fiddling around with Firefish. But also, like, on another level, the redditesque format seems to bring this inherent negativity, toxicity and one-upping garbage. Though that has gotten a lot worse since the reddit exodus, I think part of that is just people getting back into that familiar comfort zone.
It would be nice to see something that isn’t quite as user-focused as Mastodon or Firefish but isn’t quite designed to be a Reddit clone in a way that might bring something new to the table.
hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
Egos are terribly ugly. Please put yours away.
I agree. That’s why Rosanne has no ego. You go girl!
Lemmy needs a fork, if only to kick the devs into gear with regards to actually working with/listening to the community. At this point a significant number of users have been lost because the devs have been largely unable to capitalize on previous waves on growth due to slow development. It’s one thing if it’s just a couple of devs working on the project and trying their best, it’s an entirely different thing when a couple of devs are shutting out large numbers of contributors (frequently subject matter experts which they desperately need at this point) over relatively trivial issues. This isn’t the first time this has happened and it won’t be the last. Mbin is reviving Kbin as a project and we need something similar for Lemmy.
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Let’s not forget, there is a very real sense in which building the communities is harder than building the software. Anything that can be done to preserve existing communities is a win in my book.
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