Yes. Taking unilaterally aggressive action against “Israel” would be about as close to declaring war on the US led empire as you can get without a formal declaration. You can’t separate the imperialists forward base from it’s whole. They are not separate entities.
One of China’s main things is doing trade that has mutual benefit. Trade is not inherently predatory, so I don’t know where you get the “fuck everyone else” part. I’m kind of just lost as to what standards you think you’re holding China to here (standards which you don’t seem interested in applying to any other country on the planet).
I don’t care if China wants to improve the condition of their people and their country. That’s fine, just find it annoying when people bring them up as a bastion of the Global South. Why should I not hold them to a greater standard? Solidarity can come in different ways and China can’t even be bothered to do even that.
It’s sounding like we need a compiled resource on all the ways China does act in solidarity with countries that are targeted by imperialism. I cannot recall all that stuff from memory and rattle it off, but I know from things I’ve read in recent years, I have no doubt that China does generally act in solidarity. So it is weird to read “they can’t even bothered” like they aren’t doing anything internationally at all.
The DPRK – Secured the existence of the DPRK, Mutual defense treaty; trade lifeline; diplomatic shielding; border stability. China’s position prevents DPRK regime-collapse scenarios.
Cuba – Massive solar rollout; grid support; equipment and financing replacing lost Russian capacity under U.S. blockade, food aid.
Iran – Primary buyer of sanctioned oil; infrastructure investment; 25-year cooperation framework; diplomatic resistance to U.S. isolation. Military aid and intelligence assistance.
Venezuela – Oil-backed financing; infrastructure; sustained trade under sanctions; prevented total economic implosion.
Russia – Energy rerouting; industrial supply chains; strategic coordination after Western economic warfare.
Laos – China–Laos high-speed rail; power grids; landlocked transit economy.
Cambodia – Roads, ports, hydropower.
Myanmar – Pipelines, ports, rail; Indian Ocean access.
Indonesia – Jakarta–Bandung HSR; nickel processing; ports.
Malaysia – Rail corridors; ports; industrial parks.
Thailand – Rail links; logistics hubs.
Vietnam – Manufacturing integration; rail upgrades; energy projects.
Pakistan – CPEC: Gwadar port; highways; power plants; fiber optics.
Sri Lanka – Ports; expressways; power generation.
Bangladesh – Bridges; coal + solar plants; telecom.
treating international trade like consumer choice opt out is the bone-headed take that is unbecoming of anyone who considers anti-imperialism as a science. That’s the most polite I can be (like BDS barely works - like it hits bottom lines of companies as best case scenario and does fuck all for ethnic cleansing and genocide. The reason we have to even consider as a litmus test for western politicians is because westerners are so fucking retrograde and backwards)
pathetic does not even begin to describe the racism here against the Chinese (and let’s be honest, against the Palestinians too by offsetting any guilt and playing perfomative politics. “Raising awareness” politics is apparently radical)
Do you at least harbor some amount of disappointment for how little China has distanced themselves from “Israel”?
I’m not going to sit here and say China should start deploying troops to Tel Aviv, but isn’t it fair to be a little disappointed with how little they’ve browbeaten “Israel”?
On the other hand, I would have absolutely no rebuttal if you say something like “its not our place (as members of the Imperial core), to be disappointed in a nation that doesn’t want to clean up a mess that we created”. I could potentially see the orientalism in this perspective.
Or, maybe you reject the entire premise and DO think that China has been effectively browbeating “Israel”?
Do you at least harbor some amount of disappointment for how little China has distanced themselves from “Israel”?
Any disappointment I may have had is because of leftover liberalism ie my own ignorance and ineptitude. My own anger comes from how little has been done by the peoples collectively as westerners/vassal states.
The likes of Soviet Union and Cuba has done things that should jam more with western mores of what “socialism” is outside of their borders and they fucking suffered for it AND don’t get the credit they deserved.
Their peoples died en masse for the world so the rest of us can write fucking memes.
Whereas the one country that learned what that overleverage costs is the only reason we are talking here today about a realistic end of Western Hegemony. Marxism-leninism is a science and we are so backwards that we do not have the courtesy of humanity to learn it.
Or, maybe you reject the entire premise and DO think that China has been effectively browbeating “Israel”?
I suspect they are but I want to currently submit to the concrete evidence we do have rather than the speculation of what may be likely (ie high impact but low visbility eg dual use metal export ban).
The simple answer is the US is orders of magnitude worse than Israel and if one understands despite that China had to trade with the US and is avoiding hot war with it then it is telling when folks not get why the same should extend elsewhere of said hegemony. If one wants to downplay the only country to drop nuclear bombs on civilians twice then that is on them to take that risk not China’s.
Any disappointment I may have had is because of leftover liberalism ie my own ignorance and ineptitude. My own anger comes from how little has been done by the peoples collectively as westerners/vassal states.
The likes of Soviet Union and Cuba has done things that should jam more with western mores of what “socialism” is outside of their borders and they fucking suffered for it AND don’t get the credit they deserved.
Their peoples died en masse for the world so the rest of us can write fucking memes.
To enforce that economic blockade, you have to declare war to the entire West and decouple completely from the Western system(USD, SWIFT, Maritime Shipping Routes, et all).
As long as the West is willing to save their Zionist dog by bleeding their economies dry, there is no viable way to do an economic blockade without a military siege.
The problem with people here is that they see the entity as something separate rather than something within the Western system. To eradicate Israel, you have to destroy the West.
(bold emphasis mine)
In other words, we cannot take the western empire out of the picture and try to understand China’s dealings with israel as dealing with a purely sovereign, independent entity (because that’s not what it is). We have to understand it in relation to israel’s dependence on / connection with the US. When we put it in that way, it’s easier I think to understand that the question is not one of distancing from israel, but distancing from the west, and actively doing that is a valid choice for an AES state to make but it’s not the path China took when they focused on building up their productive forces and becoming the productive powerhouse that they now are. For them to go a different way has much broader implications than trade with any one nation and needs to make sense in the context of how they’re engaging with unipolar capitalism and the dynamics of global trade in order to develop toward multipolar. Were they equipped to reject the west and its genocidal ways on a broader scale, I would expect that israel would only be the tip of the iceberg and they would have a million excuses to do so with the way the west treats them and others.
So then the question becomes why? The cynical ultra-left view seems to be something like that they’re not rejecting the west because they benefit from the trade deals or something. But the west wants to undermine them no matter how they try to work for mutual benefit and the evidence points to them still being thoroughly led by communist principles. So the ultra-left view doesn’t make sense. You have to essentially believe they are either stupid or compromised on a large scale, while still putting on a face like they aren’t, both of which reek of racism that the Chinese people are incapable of recognizing internal threats and acting competently.
I think the ML answer is that the west wants to isolate and encircle them, always has, and China does not (yet) have the power to cut the west out, rather than be cut out by the west, if it comes to that; in bits and pieces maybe, and we saw some of that in the way China handled the attempted browbeating from the US with tariffs. But I think it’s still in a fragile rather than well-established state. And until the balance of power shifts enough away from western economic dominance, China playing fast and loose with rejecting trade partners means cutting themselves out of deals that could broaden their influence and weaken the west’s. This after they have worked really hard to forge the trade connections they have in the world.
I could imagine a counter argument regarding proxies going something like: Well what about Ukraine with Russia? Russia intervened militarily in Ukraine, in spite of it being a proxy of the west. But Ukraine wasn’t always a proxy, it took a long time for all out war to happen including from the west sabotaging peace deal efforts, including from Ukraine being an aggressor in the donbass, and this in the context of Ukraine being near Russia. The closest comparison for China would probably be when the US was openly at war in Korea, the Korean liberation forces were trying to fight them back and they asked for help from China and China of the time stepped in militarily. It was not only a matter of helping those in need, but it would have also been dangerous for them to have the US knocking on their doorstep next.
What’s happening to Palestine is unquestionably horrific, but it’s also far from the first time the west has done genocidal things. I think it seems unprecedented in its way largely because of how televised in real-time a genocide it has been. But the destruction itself is already characteristic of colonialism for hundreds of years and the imperialism form that developed after. If China treated it like an anomalous level of evil that has never been done before and threw massive weight behind trying to stop it as a result, they would be ignoring everything else the west has gotten away with and how important it is to ensure its power falls as a whole, not just through one proxy.
Is there a better way than what they are doing? Maybe analysis would show there is, I don’t know. But there are other countries and peoples who are more closely positioned to oppose what’s going on, namely those in the west, whose trade deals and leadership actively manufacture support for genocide day in and day out.
For anyone still lurking, and to add to what I have already said:
“Race card”; scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds
If they decide trade cessation you will do fuck all if any Chinese die as a result
If they decide not to do trade cessation, with the ongoing escalations to further hot wars the likes of you will go “oh well, they didn’t do much for palestine anyway” as a narrative for a social license to back imperialism
So the only reason you are comfortable with risking Chinese blood either way is because you’re on the samewave length as the genocidaires you nominally admonish. The likes of you are the reason why Chinese intervention is so damn risky, you make up part of the imperial cores defence, because you will offer no real stake in solidarity with Chinese and you have no real plan to threaten your own government and state.
We are, however, dialectical materialists. Matter is always in motion and we do not believe necessarily a person’s abhorrent views are set in stone; we welcome you to change them - to begin with educate yourself. A lot of us here were once liberals too.
LOL ya it’s fascist to say China doing nothing is actually bad. People like you’d be stanning for China even when they supported the khmer rouge too bud. Keep writing essays about how China is the savior of the world while the world burns.
China doing nothing is actually bad
Claiming ww3 will start from not trading with israel is stupid
China stans will write essays about how you’re racist and a fascist for expecting better from the 2nd most powerful nation in the world.
People like you’d be stanning for China even when they supported the khmer rouge too bud.
You talk like you have just learned what socialism is from the back of a milk carton. One of the top things MLs criticise China is the war against Vietnam and its dealing with Khmer Rouge.
But you don’t know that because you don’t realise what this is. The chances of you being convinced here is very close to zero; this is for anyone lurking here so they may have a chance to educate themselves and not become a piece of shit compatible-left of the US empire.
You are functionally not against the genocide, you are what makes the genocide possible.
No I do know that, which is why I brought it up the fuck. You brought up I was racist when I criticize China. I brought up another valid criticism of China and you go off some bullshit.
Keep deflecting how China NEEDS to trade with a genocidal entity to prevent future entities and criticizing that makes you racist. Joke of the century.
No I do know that, which is why I brought it up the fuck. You brought up I was racist when I criticize China. I brought up another valid criticism of China and you go off some bullshit.
Keep deflecting how China NEEDS to trade with a genocidal entity to prevent future entities and criticizing that makes you racist. Joke of the century
You’re going to have to at least demonstrate you understand the arguments made here otherwise it’s going to look like you’re being bullied for not having the intelligence bandwidth to process this at present.
Perfomative politics is all you got. Materially you’re no different that those more vocal in supporting the genocide; they are just more honest.
I mean you could learn why the Chinese have the foreign policy they do, having learned from the Soviet Union but you choose not to. Your crocodile tears mean nothing when there’s zilch about trade cessation with every other western country (like why not the US? Or Europe? They’re all orders of magnitude worse than Israel. Every war crime in palestine is theirs and then some) because you decided to hold “standards” for a country of a global south that you haven’t elsewhere. And the ongoing mass murders with other countries by the West for the past > 1 century. And this is if I pretend to take your argument at face value that all you mean is just trading.
All people ask is to not trade with a genocidal entity. The fact China can’t even manage that is pathetic.
So don’t trade with the US? With the EU? With any of the western empire’s proxies? That’s a lot to be cutting out.
Lets just start not with Israel, is it that hard to do or is trademaxxing and fuck everyone else really gonna be the only way.
Yes. Taking unilaterally aggressive action against “Israel” would be about as close to declaring war on the US led empire as you can get without a formal declaration. You can’t separate the imperialists forward base from it’s whole. They are not separate entities.
One of China’s main things is doing trade that has mutual benefit. Trade is not inherently predatory, so I don’t know where you get the “fuck everyone else” part. I’m kind of just lost as to what standards you think you’re holding China to here (standards which you don’t seem interested in applying to any other country on the planet).
I don’t care if China wants to improve the condition of their people and their country. That’s fine, just find it annoying when people bring them up as a bastion of the Global South. Why should I not hold them to a greater standard? Solidarity can come in different ways and China can’t even be bothered to do even that.
It’s sounding like we need a compiled resource on all the ways China does act in solidarity with countries that are targeted by imperialism. I cannot recall all that stuff from memory and rattle it off, but I know from things I’ve read in recent years, I have no doubt that China does generally act in solidarity. So it is weird to read “they can’t even bothered” like they aren’t doing anything internationally at all.
The DPRK – Secured the existence of the DPRK, Mutual defense treaty; trade lifeline; diplomatic shielding; border stability. China’s position prevents DPRK regime-collapse scenarios.
Cuba – Massive solar rollout; grid support; equipment and financing replacing lost Russian capacity under U.S. blockade, food aid.
Iran – Primary buyer of sanctioned oil; infrastructure investment; 25-year cooperation framework; diplomatic resistance to U.S. isolation. Military aid and intelligence assistance.
Venezuela – Oil-backed financing; infrastructure; sustained trade under sanctions; prevented total economic implosion.
Russia – Energy rerouting; industrial supply chains; strategic coordination after Western economic warfare.
Laos – China–Laos high-speed rail; power grids; landlocked transit economy.
Cambodia – Roads, ports, hydropower.
Myanmar – Pipelines, ports, rail; Indian Ocean access.
Indonesia – Jakarta–Bandung HSR; nickel processing; ports.
Malaysia – Rail corridors; ports; industrial parks.
Thailand – Rail links; logistics hubs.
Vietnam – Manufacturing integration; rail upgrades; energy projects.
Pakistan – CPEC: Gwadar port; highways; power plants; fiber optics.
Sri Lanka – Ports; expressways; power generation.
Bangladesh – Bridges; coal + solar plants; telecom.
Nepal – Roads; hydropower; cross-border trade links.
Kazakhstan – Rail hubs; pipelines; dry ports.
Uzbekistan – Industrial parks; rail.
Kyrgyzstan – Roads; power.
Tajikistan – Energy + transport.
Iraq – Power stations; reconstruction.
Ethiopia – Addis–Djibouti railway; industrial parks.
Kenya – Standard Gauge Railway; port upgrades.
Nigeria – Rail; power plants.
Angola – Oil-for-infrastructure.
Egypt – New administrative capital; industrial zones; power.
Zambia – Roads; hydropower.
Tanzania – Ports; rail.
Uganda – Power dams; roads.
Zimbabwe – Energy; airport modernization.
And honestly too many more to list in a single comment since basically all of Africa makes use of the BRI and other Chinese development pathways.
Brazil – Ports; agribusiness logistics; industrial investment.
Peru – Megaports; mining corridors.
Bolivia – Lithium; roads; telecom.
Ecuador – Hydropower; transport.
Palestine – Diplomatic support for statehood; humanitarian aid; rejection of Israeli/U.S. framing, support of PLO.
Thank you, bookmarking this for future reference. 🙏
China isn’t exporting revolution but to say China does nothing you have to be especially detached from reality.
Do you at least harbor some amount of disappointment for how little China has distanced themselves from “Israel”?
I’m not going to sit here and say China should start deploying troops to Tel Aviv, but isn’t it fair to be a little disappointed with how little they’ve browbeaten “Israel”?
On the other hand, I would have absolutely no rebuttal if you say something like “its not our place (as members of the Imperial core), to be disappointed in a nation that doesn’t want to clean up a mess that we created”. I could potentially see the orientalism in this perspective.
Or, maybe you reject the entire premise and DO think that China has been effectively browbeating “Israel”?
Honest questions.
Any disappointment I may have had is because of leftover liberalism ie my own ignorance and ineptitude. My own anger comes from how little has been done by the peoples collectively as westerners/vassal states.
The likes of Soviet Union and Cuba has done things that should jam more with western mores of what “socialism” is outside of their borders and they fucking suffered for it AND don’t get the credit they deserved.
Their peoples died en masse for the world so the rest of us can write fucking memes.
Whereas the one country that learned what that overleverage costs is the only reason we are talking here today about a realistic end of Western Hegemony. Marxism-leninism is a science and we are so backwards that we do not have the courtesy of humanity to learn it.
I suspect they are but I want to currently submit to the concrete evidence we do have rather than the speculation of what may be likely (ie high impact but low visbility eg dual use metal export ban).
The simple answer is the US is orders of magnitude worse than Israel and if one understands despite that China had to trade with the US and is avoiding hot war with it then it is telling when folks not get why the same should extend elsewhere of said hegemony. If one wants to downplay the only country to drop nuclear bombs on civilians twice then that is on them to take that risk not China’s.
Beautifully written.
I think rainpizza put it the best here: https://lemmygrad.ml/post/10742177/7761032
(bold emphasis mine)
In other words, we cannot take the western empire out of the picture and try to understand China’s dealings with israel as dealing with a purely sovereign, independent entity (because that’s not what it is). We have to understand it in relation to israel’s dependence on / connection with the US. When we put it in that way, it’s easier I think to understand that the question is not one of distancing from israel, but distancing from the west, and actively doing that is a valid choice for an AES state to make but it’s not the path China took when they focused on building up their productive forces and becoming the productive powerhouse that they now are. For them to go a different way has much broader implications than trade with any one nation and needs to make sense in the context of how they’re engaging with unipolar capitalism and the dynamics of global trade in order to develop toward multipolar. Were they equipped to reject the west and its genocidal ways on a broader scale, I would expect that israel would only be the tip of the iceberg and they would have a million excuses to do so with the way the west treats them and others.
So then the question becomes why? The cynical ultra-left view seems to be something like that they’re not rejecting the west because they benefit from the trade deals or something. But the west wants to undermine them no matter how they try to work for mutual benefit and the evidence points to them still being thoroughly led by communist principles. So the ultra-left view doesn’t make sense. You have to essentially believe they are either stupid or compromised on a large scale, while still putting on a face like they aren’t, both of which reek of racism that the Chinese people are incapable of recognizing internal threats and acting competently.
I think the ML answer is that the west wants to isolate and encircle them, always has, and China does not (yet) have the power to cut the west out, rather than be cut out by the west, if it comes to that; in bits and pieces maybe, and we saw some of that in the way China handled the attempted browbeating from the US with tariffs. But I think it’s still in a fragile rather than well-established state. And until the balance of power shifts enough away from western economic dominance, China playing fast and loose with rejecting trade partners means cutting themselves out of deals that could broaden their influence and weaken the west’s. This after they have worked really hard to forge the trade connections they have in the world.
I could imagine a counter argument regarding proxies going something like: Well what about Ukraine with Russia? Russia intervened militarily in Ukraine, in spite of it being a proxy of the west. But Ukraine wasn’t always a proxy, it took a long time for all out war to happen including from the west sabotaging peace deal efforts, including from Ukraine being an aggressor in the donbass, and this in the context of Ukraine being near Russia. The closest comparison for China would probably be when the US was openly at war in Korea, the Korean liberation forces were trying to fight them back and they asked for help from China and China of the time stepped in militarily. It was not only a matter of helping those in need, but it would have also been dangerous for them to have the US knocking on their doorstep next.
What’s happening to Palestine is unquestionably horrific, but it’s also far from the first time the west has done genocidal things. I think it seems unprecedented in its way largely because of how televised in real-time a genocide it has been. But the destruction itself is already characteristic of colonialism for hundreds of years and the imperialism form that developed after. If China treated it like an anomalous level of evil that has never been done before and threw massive weight behind trying to stop it as a result, they would be ignoring everything else the west has gotten away with and how important it is to ensure its power falls as a whole, not just through one proxy.
Is there a better way than what they are doing? Maybe analysis would show there is, I don’t know. But there are other countries and peoples who are more closely positioned to oppose what’s going on, namely those in the west, whose trade deals and leadership actively manufacture support for genocide day in and day out.
Pulling the race card for China max trading with genociders will never get old
For anyone still lurking, and to add to what I have already said:
So the only reason you are comfortable with risking Chinese blood either way is because you’re on the samewave length as the genocidaires you nominally admonish. The likes of you are the reason why Chinese intervention is so damn risky, you make up part of the imperial cores defence, because you will offer no real stake in solidarity with Chinese and you have no real plan to threaten your own government and state.
We are, however, dialectical materialists. Matter is always in motion and we do not believe necessarily a person’s abhorrent views are set in stone; we welcome you to change them - to begin with educate yourself. A lot of us here were once liberals too.
LOL ya it’s fascist to say China doing nothing is actually bad. People like you’d be stanning for China even when they supported the khmer rouge too bud. Keep writing essays about how China is the savior of the world while the world burns.
You talk like you have just learned what socialism is from the back of a milk carton. One of the top things MLs criticise China is the war against Vietnam and its dealing with Khmer Rouge.
But you don’t know that because you don’t realise what this is. The chances of you being convinced here is very close to zero; this is for anyone lurking here so they may have a chance to educate themselves and not become a piece of shit compatible-left of the US empire.
You are functionally not against the genocide, you are what makes the genocide possible.
Hope that helps, buddy.
No I do know that, which is why I brought it up the fuck. You brought up I was racist when I criticize China. I brought up another valid criticism of China and you go off some bullshit.
Keep deflecting how China NEEDS to trade with a genocidal entity to prevent future entities and criticizing that makes you racist. Joke of the century.
You’re going to have to at least demonstrate you understand the arguments made here otherwise it’s going to look like you’re being bullied for not having the intelligence bandwidth to process this at present.
Perfomative politics is all you got. Materially you’re no different that those more vocal in supporting the genocide; they are just more honest.
I mean you could learn why the Chinese have the foreign policy they do, having learned from the Soviet Union but you choose not to. Your crocodile tears mean nothing when there’s zilch about trade cessation with every other western country (like why not the US? Or Europe? They’re all orders of magnitude worse than Israel. Every war crime in palestine is theirs and then some) because you decided to hold “standards” for a country of a global south that you haven’t elsewhere. And the ongoing mass murders with other countries by the West for the past > 1 century. And this is if I pretend to take your argument at face value that all you mean is just trading.
So yeah what you said is fucking racist.