The role of AI tools (LLMs, mainly) in Linux is under discussion, or it was, until Linus Torvalds “put his foot down” in support of the use of AI in Linux kernel development.
As a member of the community, I won’t have a problem if the interactions with LLMs are only with open source ones, and the conversation is available as open data to all, without restrictions. The same which CommonVoice does for Voice.
Data matters so much that the companies keep it to themselves. And I absolutely don’t want the data to be used for training models which enslave the developers and the people of this planet. The least is that data should be open to all, so the FOSS community would have a chance to use the data to contribute back to FOSS.
Note that it doesn’t matter if the model is open source. For Machine Learning the data matters as much as the code does, if not more. And in this case, data matters much much more. The code is widely available and can also get researched independently.
Torvalds has years of experience as a developer, he wrote:
AI is a tool, just like other tools we use. And it’s clearly a useful one.
Which I firmly agree with. I think if AI is used responsibly it can be beneficial for certain tasks. More education around better AI usage and practices is more important now than ever before.
He wasn’t in support of it per say, he was against a strong stance against it and makes it clear it’s a tool. In/out grouping is a shitty rhetoric that to me feels unenlightened. Especially when combined with twisting someones words.
Just because Linus put his foot down doesn’t mean the discussion is over. Reeks of hero worship. He also said that Linux isn’t political…
it isnt political, its a a kernel
Open source is inherently political.
Everything is intrinsically political. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zruGBWLk9s8
Though some things are more political than others. ;) Free Software’s avowedly a piece of political philosophy. Open Source seems more like corporate(/monopoly/fascist) strategy. Namely, Embrace-Extend-Extinguish.
Can you rephrase those two last sentences? Because I didn’t quite got that.
Embrace-extend-extinguish is when a large company adopts an existing open standard (encouraging users to use its software due to that compatibility) and then extends that standard with proprietary features, rendering software using the open standard incompatible and extinguishing their ability to compete with the larger platform.
Embrace-extend-extinguish is when a large company adopts an existing open standard (encouraging users to use its software due to that compatibility) and then extends that standard with proprietary features, rendering software using the open standard incompatible and extinguishing their ability to compete with the larger platform.
Whoowee! That’s some dangerous dry dark comedy there, satirically showing embrace-extend-extinguish being done to the meaning of embrace-extend-extinguish. Dark heavy jokes for dark heavy times. Some people may miss this is a joke, and believe that agnogenic definition, and then go on to share that corporate corrupted/sanctified definition is as far as it goes, and proceed through life oblivious to the ground being stolen from beneath their feet, and everywhere else all around them, things just magically mysteriously disappearing [if even noticed at all], from all the broader application of embrace-extend-extinguish outside that myopic definition undergoing embrace-extend-extinguish. Enough not-even-wrong in the skew, the lie of omission’s easy to miss. Wwwwway more than just “open standards” get embraced. Everything, every movement, every idea, you have, that threatens their monopolistic interests, offers any competition, anything you love, you yourself, are ripe for that “embrace”. … Sleep well. ;D [Face the horror.]
[I had that paragraph left unfinished for a while, distracted, only seeing this tab again much later, while listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52eqkJM-Ll4 which oddly syncs up with this. He can put it better than I can. I’m clumsy with words (you may have noticed, lol). Not that Peter Turchin’s on about embrace-extend-extinguish, but the broader context in which that happens. … The placatium of the earlier half of the lost century, having been removed, and the 2 generation lag, the oscilation, the shared wealth fairness/injustice thing, and the implications. … We won’t stay fooled by the fruits of the embrace-extend-extinguish’ing. The results accumulate, the nail gets rustier, the dog eventually does more than just wail, and gets up off it. The lies, the tactics, no longer work. … E.g. no more “strong man to save us” scams from politicians work. … Novel solutions abound in the crisis pressure increased under the oppressions and iniquity pump of the kleptarchy. … Novel solutions like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RBNboYUlVI freenet, but something like that (even on/via/facilitated-by freenet) specific more for democracy and “economics” and “finance”… and so, even as these dire looming possibilities like skynet and all the rest of the dystopian venn diagram(s) so loom, we also are at a vast junction to “STOP FALLING FOR IT”, and we even sublimate out of the oscilation, out of bouncing back from catastrophic pressure buildings that threaten all life, so vast are our capabilities now, no longer able to continue that oscilation… so as we stare down the barrel of the first ever lasting totalitarian technarchy tyranny, in the hands of the oligarchs, kakistarchs, the attercoparchs, the kleptarchs, the malarchs, whatever flavour of archy one chooses to include in describing the paradigm, ~ even as we stare down the barrel of the first everlasting authoritarian total control, we have the potential to evoke the everlasting[?] robustness against centralising corruption. Like the freenet[.org] example shows. We can still mend this. … Or maybe it too is an embrace phase, moving in on the decentralised internet space, seeking to monopolise it, and then they’ll be the central dictum of the shape of it, free to re-eliminate whatever liberties they choose. In their demo tech, they already show a convenient recentralised web portal to the tech to try it out. XD. Eternal Vigilance… Beware what’s behind every offer of embrace, especially from strangers and corporations and strongman saviors.]]
but this isnt a foss group or gnu. FSF is very political, linux is not. microsoft is the largest contributor to open source with goigke in second pkace. they bith have many open source projects but dont shate tge same values as FSF. Linux has never pushed that agenda.
linux is literally licensed under the GPL, it is actively pushing that agenda
Oil is a group of hydrocarbons
I think Linus has realized that LLM’s are not going anywhere and can actually be a useful tool if used correctly.
And he is right in that respect. I know Lemmy is very anti-AI, and for good reason. Because we do not NEED it. And heat producing, power and water guzzling datacenters in this time of climate change is absolutely NOT what we need.
Yet I think LLM’s are here to stay. When used as an “employee” you instruct what to do while keeping total control of the code it produces it is actually pretty useful.
However, I really do hope that open weight models keep improving (which they are) and running them locally on midrange gpu’s on your own computer will be the future.
Because the way the big AI companies are doing things now is absolutely not sustainable and I hope they all fail soon.
I know Lemmy is very anti-AI
No, Lemmy isn’t very anti-AI, just very sane.
AI is a tool. If it does the job better than other tools that’s totally okay. It has so much potential to improve lives.
If on the other hand it’s about artificial general intelligence soon™ hallucinations, “we can totally replace all skilled workers”-fairy tales and other “stop using your brains and eat the slob”-bullshit it just needs to die… alongside the
company CEOssnake oil buyers who (not so secretly anymore) dream about getting rid of all those pesky workers they have to pay proper wages.And sadly 99% of the narratives we are constantly fed (and yes, that includes such “See Linus now supports AI! AI’s winning!!” bullshit stories, when it would be the perfect starting point to actually evaluate AI properly just once…) belong to the second category. Because AI companies in their insanity painted themselves into a corner. Their investments are insane, their market models unsustainable and telling the lie that everyone needs to use their AI and get integrated everywhere-even if it makes zero sense- is basically their only way to salvage something from that shitshow.
I’m not sure “sane” is the best word for us generally 😂
But I get your point and agree with it
And heat producing, power and water guzzling datacenters in this time of climate change is absolutely NOT what we need.
I hope it gets more and more optimised and efficient, so it can be used with a local setup. With a normal computer or notebook
Arguing over use of a tool is foolish.
Arguing over correct use of a tool absolutely has merit.
AI as an industry has extremely debatable morality, however you kinda can’t put this genie back in the bottle.
Like him or don’t, his ultimate message of “This shit is here so you may as well learn how to embrace it” isn’t inherently bad either in context of bug-hunting and skilled individuals using the tools as an aid rather than as the alpha and omega solution.
How is this controversial besides coming from the guy who said it?
“Rape and adultery are a major boost to reproduction rate and infancy survival rate therefore are very useful. Embrace it. Enjoy it.”
Haha. Do you people have no morality?
Read further before responding next time and don’t “you people” me when you’ve got no idea what bucket I fit in.
Some of us perceive benefit in not touching “the shit” and not letting “the shit” get in our environment (computers, phones, lettuce)
There may be no tech way to put the genie into the septic tank, but surely we can’t be forced to deal with it, and until the foot dropped there was a social way to rebottle the genie
Oh I agree. I jumped off Windows the day I got my laptop and saw what a horror show windows 11 is and am outright refusing to update my android until I can unlock my bootloader and entirely degoogle.
I also don’t use any of the big LLMs because I see no point and don’t have a job that requires I do so. I personally believe AI is a net-negative for humanity in general.
One could also argue the very same for alcohol, gunpowder, firearms, etc. The only recourse left is to argue ethical use, not cry about not wanting it in the world anymore.
Besides, what does using AI to debug the kernel and optimize it for people who have reason to run local LLMs have to do with you and me? I’m all for sticking it to The Man when he does some Seriously Dumb Shit, but this whole situation qualifies for neither.
This is the correct take, and I kinda hate many things AI is doing.
Lucky we still have OpenBSD.
in Linux is under discussion
Are you referring to LKML discussion? Or some other metaphysical discussion we should be aware of? Yes. Linus replied in the thread.
It’s not really very surprising point of view.
Looking at it from another angle: how many tons of CO₂ added to the atmosphere or liters of fresh water supplies disrupted is a tolerable price for a better code review? Temperatures during heat waves are exceeding 50°C in India, causing tens thousands of deaths.
Literally a negligible amount of emissions and seems to be the core of their argument. It doesnt make a dent in any of those stats nor does it have any impact on the temp in India. Reminds me of the people who screech over private jets as if banning them will do anything to slow down climate change. Even his own link “The AI built-out is by far the fastest growing energy consumer in the world” undermines his point showing that computing has been the fastest growing industry for years by % increase (its a tiny % of the total) not by actual power increase. The projected 1.5% to 3% of global energy use seems reasonable given how massive computing is in our day to day lives. We are lucky we have something so efficient that is so useful we spend far more energy on far worse things than computers.
