I’m not sure what you are saying. Straws, like plastic carriers were a well-established product that could be beneficially regulated tp reduce plastic waste. Single-use vapes were a new product category that pretty much came out of nowhere and are now likely to be regulated. Do you want a general purpose ban on every single-use item containing plastic? Not a bad idea, but it would be a big, quite radical change to the way people lived their lives - no biros etc.
Straws a literal drop on the ocean compared to what corporations are doing to the oceans.
I am happy to have paper straws if it helps the planet, but they chose the smallest thing they could do and as always put the onus on the consumers and not the producers.
They initially chose a thing that would have marginal impact on consumers’ behaviour, yes. Starting in October 2023, people will no longer be able to buy plastic cutlery, plates, bowls, trays, balloon sticks, and other items.
Which items would you nominate for an immediate ban in addition?
Regarding consumers v producers - they literally just stopped producers selling this stuff. What do you mean?
I would shift the onus on the people buying the shit (consumers) to the people making it (producers).
Maybe we could look at fishing nets, plastic bottles etc.
To be clear I am all for doing more for the planet but I take issue with the blame being misplaced on consumers when the producers are polluting orders of magnitude more than we are.
Whether a producer is prohibited from producing or selling has zero affect on the UK consumer. I agree that a ban on production would be good, but in the vast majority of cases these are overseas producers, so that can’t be legislated for.
why do you think the producers are producing these things? Because consumer demand. If we stopped purchasing these things, they wouldn’t produce them. They only produce them because that’s where the money is.
The majority of consumers giving a shit about anything that doesn’t affect them.
Stopping the production of things we actually don’t want people to buy anymore.
It’s much easier to regulate a handful of companies than it is to educate several billion people and try and get them to change buying habits.
That’s like excusing a serial killer because victims are plentiful. You wouldn’t blame the victims and tell them to stay away from serial killers. You would punish the serial killer no?
Sure, we coudl go back to washing powder in boxes, using fountain pens, go back buying fruit loose from greengrocers, make our own yogurt, visit a creamery with a glass jar to buy cream, and get rid of most ready meals. I think “easily” is rather under-estimating the level of disruption it would cause the average person
Tbh I think you are overestimating the disruption, lots people do already buy washing powder in cardboard boxes(it’s also a better product BC you buy it in bigger volumes and you can measure out the exact right amount for your machine and water hardness), picking your fruit from a loose box in the supermarket and putting into your shopping cart in a paper bag or a bag you bring yourself is also super normal, why would you have to make your own yougert? Why would you need to go to a creamry for cream rather than use the supermarket glass bottle return scheme used for milk? I feel like I should note that there a lot of food-safe resins and waxes that can liquid-proof containers that aren’t actualy prohibitively expensive but a bit more expensive and currently less widely produced than plastics. But considering what we’re doing to the planet that sacrifice is negligable
Yeah the pre-portioned and plated ready meals you buy from the fridge section would probably stop being thing, but there also food-bar things that serve a very similar product
Obviously life would change a bit and it wouldn’t be painless but I really think people overestimate it and something absolutely has to change
Yes. And for the most part, those are lined with a very thin plastic skin - which is what makes recycling difficult. I didn’t mention milk or juice because glass bottles would be the obvious answer.
This whole government makes a whole lot more sense once you come to the realisation that they’re all mentally challenged in the literal sense. It wouldn’t surprise me if they couldn’t even conceptualise how the two things are related.
They got in to power because of privilege. Those with privilege and intelligence have long since abandoned the Tory party, so you’re just left with the bottom of the barrel; the privileged and dim - it’s no wonder this country is failing.
It’s like that whole encryption thing they’re failing to push through; the fact that “this is an embarrassingly stupid and unworkable idea” never gets brought up just goes to show. They don’t even know what encryption is, it’s a joke.
Dude, they aren’t lacking in intelligence, they’re educated and very capable people. They don’t give a shit about plastic pollution, they just want to try and reduce the impact of protesters. They don’t give a shit about how bad their encryption law would be for people and businesses because it would give them more power and a stronger chilling effect so they can suppress dissidents. They are not lacking in mental faculties whatsoever, they are playing you for a fool.
I know they don’t care but they’re also not very intelligent. I thought that would be non-controversial. The capitalist class that put them there might be intelligent but not the politicians themselves.
No, you’re just wrong. Most politicians are of average intelligence or above. Do you have any sort of source which indicates otherwise? What would drive you to this? The argument that politicians are bad because they have an intellectual disability is extremely ableist.
It’s not ablism to suggest someone might not have the mental capacity to do a job.
I thought it would be obvious just looking at the shallowness of their reasoning. Also, an evil genius would at least act in their own interests, whereas the Tories have been pretty self-destructive.
They have acted very strongly in their own interests. Do you think they want to be in politics forever? They hang around for a few years to make their name, get the lobbyist money, do some favours for some corporations in exchange for lucrative benefits and board positions and head off into to sunset to count their stacks of cash.
Again, “the shallowness of their reasoning”, they’re very clearly lying about their reasons because they can’t come out and say “we want to ban encryption because we want to be able to spy on all of our own population at any time without a warrant”
It’s not ablism to suggest someone might not have the mental capacity to do a job.
Yes, it literally is. It’s like saying that women are too sensitive to be politicians. I would far rather have a trustworthy person who listens to working class people and has a good heart but who also has an intellectual disability to run the country than what we have right now. It would be far better.
The fact that these things came out after banning plastic straws shows nobody knows what the fuck they’re doing.
straws aren’t even the problem. The largest source of plastic in the ocean is fishing nets and discarded fishing equipment.
The interesting question becomes where these are coming from and why. Which countries?
Straws may not be the problem, but I remember straws being washed up all over the beach.
I’m not sure what you are saying. Straws, like plastic carriers were a well-established product that could be beneficially regulated tp reduce plastic waste. Single-use vapes were a new product category that pretty much came out of nowhere and are now likely to be regulated. Do you want a general purpose ban on every single-use item containing plastic? Not a bad idea, but it would be a big, quite radical change to the way people lived their lives - no biros etc.
Straws a literal drop on the ocean compared to what corporations are doing to the oceans.
I am happy to have paper straws if it helps the planet, but they chose the smallest thing they could do and as always put the onus on the consumers and not the producers.
They initially chose a thing that would have marginal impact on consumers’ behaviour, yes. Starting in October 2023, people will no longer be able to buy plastic cutlery, plates, bowls, trays, balloon sticks, and other items.
Which items would you nominate for an immediate ban in addition?
Regarding consumers v producers - they literally just stopped producers selling this stuff. What do you mean?
I would shift the onus on the people buying the shit (consumers) to the people making it (producers).
Maybe we could look at fishing nets, plastic bottles etc.
To be clear I am all for doing more for the planet but I take issue with the blame being misplaced on consumers when the producers are polluting orders of magnitude more than we are.
Stopping a producer selling it in a country is putting the onus on the producer.
I don’t think the narrative of producer v consumer is particularly helpful. Any regulation that hits the producer will also hit the consumer.
I’d be all for a ban on plastic bottles, but you need proper glass bottle deposit schemes in place first
I think it is helpful.
Consumers can only buy what’s on the shelves. If we limit production then the former isn’t an issue.
Whether a producer is prohibited from producing or selling has zero affect on the UK consumer. I agree that a ban on production would be good, but in the vast majority of cases these are overseas producers, so that can’t be legislated for.
Then wouldn’t we regulate the imports.
No Asda you can’t import from X because they do Y?
Not trying to argue here, just want to be more informed.
How much less talking about the consumers responsible is appropriate? Or do you think people shouldn’t talk about it at all?
why do you think the producers are producing these things? Because consumer demand. If we stopped purchasing these things, they wouldn’t produce them. They only produce them because that’s where the money is.
Which is more likely.
The majority of consumers giving a shit about anything that doesn’t affect them.
Stopping the production of things we actually don’t want people to buy anymore.
It’s much easier to regulate a handful of companies than it is to educate several billion people and try and get them to change buying habits.
That’s like excusing a serial killer because victims are plentiful. You wouldn’t blame the victims and tell them to stay away from serial killers. You would punish the serial killer no?
Most of the world didn’t use single use plastics until the last fifty years, we could get rid of it all easily, we simply choose not to.
Sure, we coudl go back to washing powder in boxes, using fountain pens, go back buying fruit loose from greengrocers, make our own yogurt, visit a creamery with a glass jar to buy cream, and get rid of most ready meals. I think “easily” is rather under-estimating the level of disruption it would cause the average person
Tbh I think you are overestimating the disruption, lots people do already buy washing powder in cardboard boxes(it’s also a better product BC you buy it in bigger volumes and you can measure out the exact right amount for your machine and water hardness), picking your fruit from a loose box in the supermarket and putting into your shopping cart in a paper bag or a bag you bring yourself is also super normal, why would you have to make your own yougert? Why would you need to go to a creamry for cream rather than use the supermarket glass bottle return scheme used for milk? I feel like I should note that there a lot of food-safe resins and waxes that can liquid-proof containers that aren’t actualy prohibitively expensive but a bit more expensive and currently less widely produced than plastics. But considering what we’re doing to the planet that sacrifice is negligable
Yeah the pre-portioned and plated ready meals you buy from the fridge section would probably stop being thing, but there also food-bar things that serve a very similar product
Obviously life would change a bit and it wouldn’t be painless but I really think people overestimate it and something absolutely has to change
Thank you for this optimistic take. Appreciated and thought provoking
Have you never seen a cardboard carton of juice or milk?
Yes. And for the most part, those are lined with a very thin plastic skin - which is what makes recycling difficult. I didn’t mention milk or juice because glass bottles would be the obvious answer.
You know, people have bought milk from farmers long before they invented plastic packaging…
Yeh. Now scale that to New York or London. I think you are stuck with glass bottles in a refrigerator
Or even cares. As usual cheap Chinese tat (other third world tat markets are available) and its lapped up here without a thought.
This whole government makes a whole lot more sense once you come to the realisation that they’re all mentally challenged in the literal sense. It wouldn’t surprise me if they couldn’t even conceptualise how the two things are related.
Nah, that does a disservice to both mentally challenged people, and lets the Tories off for how cruel they really are
You can still be cruel and mentally challenged.
They got in to power because of privilege. Those with privilege and intelligence have long since abandoned the Tory party, so you’re just left with the bottom of the barrel; the privileged and dim - it’s no wonder this country is failing.
It’s like that whole encryption thing they’re failing to push through; the fact that “this is an embarrassingly stupid and unworkable idea” never gets brought up just goes to show. They don’t even know what encryption is, it’s a joke.
Dude, they aren’t lacking in intelligence, they’re educated and very capable people. They don’t give a shit about plastic pollution, they just want to try and reduce the impact of protesters. They don’t give a shit about how bad their encryption law would be for people and businesses because it would give them more power and a stronger chilling effect so they can suppress dissidents. They are not lacking in mental faculties whatsoever, they are playing you for a fool.
I know they don’t care but they’re also not very intelligent. I thought that would be non-controversial. The capitalist class that put them there might be intelligent but not the politicians themselves.
No, you’re just wrong. Most politicians are of average intelligence or above. Do you have any sort of source which indicates otherwise? What would drive you to this? The argument that politicians are bad because they have an intellectual disability is extremely ableist.
It’s not ablism to suggest someone might not have the mental capacity to do a job.
I thought it would be obvious just looking at the shallowness of their reasoning. Also, an evil genius would at least act in their own interests, whereas the Tories have been pretty self-destructive.
They have acted very strongly in their own interests. Do you think they want to be in politics forever? They hang around for a few years to make their name, get the lobbyist money, do some favours for some corporations in exchange for lucrative benefits and board positions and head off into to sunset to count their stacks of cash.
Again, “the shallowness of their reasoning”, they’re very clearly lying about their reasons because they can’t come out and say “we want to ban encryption because we want to be able to spy on all of our own population at any time without a warrant”
Yes, it literally is. It’s like saying that women are too sensitive to be politicians. I would far rather have a trustworthy person who listens to working class people and has a good heart but who also has an intellectual disability to run the country than what we have right now. It would be far better.
at least nobody’s vaping out of straws
You might not be!