Man, you can’t even get people to do anything about actual concentration camps. Like, some people tried to organize raids on the places where humans were being held because they dared to cross a border, in horrible conditions, including children. Nobody did a gods damned thing. A lot of fucking noise about how “somebody” should do something, but they couldn’t.
Yet another black man was murdered by police a few years ago, and people did rise up a little, but didn’t have the will or stamina to do the job all the way to the finish.
Truth? The people that think they’re all progressive and good are fucking complacent. They really think that they can fix the system from the inside without any sacrifice.
Fuck, you can’t even get far left radicals to actually do something concrete.
Meanwhile, the far right has ridden on the coat tails of racism and hate until they’ve been taken over completely by the racists and fascists, but they’re united enough via identity politics that they’ll never, ever let go of what they’ve gained without an actual, real fight.
It’s not like the protests just went nowhere and petered out. That was the effect, but the state showed that it has a violent and psychotic response to any serious criticism, and was unashamed of it.
Only the original 4 who murdered George Floyd were charged. None of the other police in Mpls who shot citizens, instigated riots, and actively harmed peaceful protesters haven’t, and will never be charged.
After the protests, the MPLS police gave up. They will now only show up to a call if and I quote “There is a dead body”
Yet another black man was murdered by police a few years ago, and people did rise up a little, but didn’t have the will or stamina to do the job all the way to the finish.
Just for clairity…what does finishing the job all the way entail? What would that process be? I assume you’re talking about George Floyd? From what I saw there were national protests. A few cities, including his own, got violent at times. I even heard of certain Canadian cities protesting. Which in my mind made little sense, but I appriciate the gesture.
But what more, short of killing every cop, are you suggesting be done?
The point is to keep escalating until the government cannot just keep throwing cops at the problem. This, however, requires some level of popular support, which does not seem possible given that about half the American electorate is fine with slavery in the first place.
Dude, please get the fuck over yourself. ‘Actual concentration camps’ fucking REALLY??? Please shut the fuck up with that heinous bullshit.
Yeah, the conditions are shit, but it is NOWHERE CLOSE to actual concentration camps that were used for an actual genocide. Seriously dude, fuck off.
Unless I’m misreading this whole exchange, I believe what’s being discussed is the modern day Mexican border, and the holding camps in which families are sometimes seperated. They have conditions which actively lead to people dying. Children and small women especially.
They aren’t actively designed as a concentration camp, but in smaller numbers that’s the end result sometimes. The problem in this conversation I see is that terrible inhuman conditions which do lead to death by the thousands each year is being compared to a place like auschwitz, which killed people by the millions each year intentionally by design.
What you’re linking is true, and it was terrible, but it was also close to 80 years ago. The Japanese today have no issue with coming to America.
So this whole thread to me seems like 5 different people, all shouting 5 different arguementive points, none of which corelate with each other in any way.
Concentration and extermination camps are two different things (and Auschwitz illustrated that clearly after 42 and the Birkenau camp).
A very quick glance at what happened at the US-Mexico border makes me think the camps there fit the bill, or at least the usual definition of the word (basically, indiscrinate mass internment).
I would say that any time a group is targeted, deprived of freedom and moved into brutal conditions, comparisons about exactly how bad a given version of a concentration camp is kinda ignores the point that they’re fucking wrong by nature. They are a stain on humanity, period.
And I actually include prisons in the United States as morally equivalent since there’s a disproportionate amount of minorities targeted the be put in there. But at least they had the pretence of due process, so it isn’t the same thing.
And make no mistake, the “holding” facilities were indeed intended to treat humans like filth. And they’re designed in a way that has led to rampant death.
The only reason that deaths haven’t reached genocide levels is no active killing, it’s all passive so that people can ignore or and pretend they aren’t responsible for each and every death that does occur. Any citizen of the United States bears the onus of what w.e did to the Japanese citizens in ww2, and we bear the onus of what has happened, and is still happening to our fellow human beings in this hellholes currently.
What I’m doing here is expressing my disgust with so-called activists and militants that claim to want serious change, but will not risk anything to do it. And yes, it is impossible to do alone, it takes feet on the ground, willing to take any action necessary, and that’s risky. Every attempt to organize a serious effort that I could find failed because nobody was willing to take action. They wanted to fuck around, have a little circle jerk about how bad it was, and go home.
We, as a population, have stood by while our fellow man have been treated worse than we treat animals. Which is pretty bad, if you’ve ever seen industrial farming.
One million, one thousand, one hundred, even one is too many.
Nobody was ever defending them, or the conditions they’re put in. But there’s a difference between something like an actual concentration camp, which sole purpose is to kill ALL that come into it, and something like the modern day holding prisons along the mexican border.
The purpose of those prisons along the border is to dehumanize people, torture them, beat them, and then release them. That is the intended purpose by those that built them. Some people die in those conditions. It is not the intent, but it does happen.
Nobody is argueing that we’re in favor of these prisons. Yes they are awful. They DO kill thousands each year. Nobody is defending that.
I’m just saying in this world both the left and the right are taking the most extreme version of events, try to pass them off as reality, and then wonder why the other side sees them as insane.
Conceptually speaking, an actual concentration camp intentionally kills in less than a half hour what these holding prisons kill in a year. Millions of Jews died in just over 4 years. Something like 40% of their total population at the time. Meanwhile, you could add up 30 years of the border prisons, and they maybe have killed 1% of the population.
I would love to see an easier legal way for mexicans to come to America. I’ve heard the average wait for the legal process to work is 28 years. I’d rather they just fill out some forms, prove that they know the country and can speak passable english, and stamp their entry card. But until that happens, they’re going to try to cross the boarder illegally because it’s their only option.
The only way to remove those prisons, is to basically gut this entire country, and rebuild the culture. We need the culture we were taught exists as kids in school. The America that has not only tolerance, but embracement for other races and peoples. The melting pot of oppertunity is how I was taught this country behaved. Instead I’ve seen racism so thick that a white woman yelled at a native american woman to go back to her country without a hint of irony.
But all of this happens, because half this country WANTS it to happen. And why? Because they’re fed batshit insane stories by their media that tells them we’re all insane for wanting mexicans to become citizens. Then they see you saying that a holding prison is the same as what happens at concentration camps, and it adds to the legitimacy that their opposing side is insane.
Well the thing about lying and manipulation is, the big lie relies on credibility. If I tell you 5 small truths that you already know, and they reinforce your beliefs, then I can tell you a medium lie, and it’s believable. Because if I have a history of telling the truth, then I’ve developed trust with you that you can believe me when I say something you’re not sure of. You don’t know if that medium lie is true or not, but I’ve never steered you wrong before. So even if the medium lie isn’t true, you see it as an inaccuracy rather than a lie.
So these right wing news outlets sprinkle just enough truth, mixed in with reenforcing their own already set opinions that now they can tell small lies all day, and their base won’t even question them. Because they see them as a credible source.
But then they see you saying that a holding cell with inhuman conditions is the same as actual concentration camps, and it becomes very easy for them to see you as insane. Therefore you must be lying, because their news source said you’re lying. So the conditions must not be that bad. And that becomes the narrative. One side vs an opposing side, because both sides are drifting farther and farther apart. Unable to see eye to eye. Both sides acting insane. Neither side willing to comprimise.
And welcome to the modern day. Where reality doesn’t matter as long as corporate interests pay less taxes, and pay less wages. So we ALL suffer.
Man, I truly appreciate the effort and passion you put out there. That’s some beautiful humanity inside you.
The only thing I can say that doesn’t insult what you put out is that, as wonderful as it would be for your hopes to come true, I simply don’t believe it is possible without tearing down the country built on slavery, oligarchy, and sheer hubris, and starting fresh. The system isn’t just broken, it was never whole.
Again, I am so glad to see someone put that much thought into a response to my sheer disgust at the world, and bring hope into the subject. I can’t debate the fine points of it without dishonoring the intent there. So I’ll just say thank you.
The Supreme Court even today has over twice the approval rating as Congress (that’s not saying much). Overthrowing one branch of government seems like a novel idea. There is a process for removing justices but it’s never been done before. Only one justice has been impeached, Samuel Chase, and he wasn’t even removed from the bench.
I want to overthrow everything. Just…just all of it. The corrupt leaders. The corrupt police. The capitolistic system which encourages exploitation. The conditions which lead to poverty. The systemic racism. Just…just delete, start new file.
What should we call this new country? I’m thinking “Whoopsiedaisy” has a nice ring to it.
If everything was started from scratch tomorrow, the likelihood of present day California and Texas naturally ending up together in the same nation is pretty much zero, IMHO.
Those two are kept together by pretty much a country-sized version of a Sunken Cost Falacy.
One can’t even count on language or culture as a unifying element, otherwise the whole of Latin America would be 2 countries, Brasil & Everybody Else.
Could be. Its next to impossible to accurately get the details right on hypotheticals. But what your saying isn’t far fetched. I can see Texas being a country…and reintroducing slaves.
I mean…I’m joking, but I also wouldn’t put it past them.
How much general legitimacy does the regime have there? Do people not want to overthrow/replace it by this point?
Man, you can’t even get people to do anything about actual concentration camps. Like, some people tried to organize raids on the places where humans were being held because they dared to cross a border, in horrible conditions, including children. Nobody did a gods damned thing. A lot of fucking noise about how “somebody” should do something, but they couldn’t.
Yet another black man was murdered by police a few years ago, and people did rise up a little, but didn’t have the will or stamina to do the job all the way to the finish.
Truth? The people that think they’re all progressive and good are fucking complacent. They really think that they can fix the system from the inside without any sacrifice.
Fuck, you can’t even get far left radicals to actually do something concrete.
Meanwhile, the far right has ridden on the coat tails of racism and hate until they’ve been taken over completely by the racists and fascists, but they’re united enough via identity politics that they’ll never, ever let go of what they’ve gained without an actual, real fight.
It’s not like the protests just went nowhere and petered out. That was the effect, but the state showed that it has a violent and psychotic response to any serious criticism, and was unashamed of it.
And people went the fuck home
The cops were charged.
Only the original 4 who murdered George Floyd were charged. None of the other police in Mpls who shot citizens, instigated riots, and actively harmed peaceful protesters haven’t, and will never be charged.
After the protests, the MPLS police gave up. They will now only show up to a call if and I quote “There is a dead body”
The system is still broken
Just for clairity…what does finishing the job all the way entail? What would that process be? I assume you’re talking about George Floyd? From what I saw there were national protests. A few cities, including his own, got violent at times. I even heard of certain Canadian cities protesting. Which in my mind made little sense, but I appriciate the gesture.
But what more, short of killing every cop, are you suggesting be done?
The point is to keep escalating until the government cannot just keep throwing cops at the problem. This, however, requires some level of popular support, which does not seem possible given that about half the American electorate is fine with slavery in the first place.
Seems you understand what needs to be done
Pull down everyone in power and rebuild a nation. That’s what revolution is
Dude, please get the fuck over yourself. ‘Actual concentration camps’ fucking REALLY??? Please shut the fuck up with that heinous bullshit. Yeah, the conditions are shit, but it is NOWHERE CLOSE to actual concentration camps that were used for an actual genocide. Seriously dude, fuck off.
You know, I was tempted to just give you a bit of a troll and tell you to blow me, but damn dude.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans
edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_migrant_detentions 🖕
Unless I’m misreading this whole exchange, I believe what’s being discussed is the modern day Mexican border, and the holding camps in which families are sometimes seperated. They have conditions which actively lead to people dying. Children and small women especially.
They aren’t actively designed as a concentration camp, but in smaller numbers that’s the end result sometimes. The problem in this conversation I see is that terrible inhuman conditions which do lead to death by the thousands each year is being compared to a place like auschwitz, which killed people by the millions each year intentionally by design.
What you’re linking is true, and it was terrible, but it was also close to 80 years ago. The Japanese today have no issue with coming to America.
So this whole thread to me seems like 5 different people, all shouting 5 different arguementive points, none of which corelate with each other in any way.
…so what are we even doing here?
Concentration and extermination camps are two different things (and Auschwitz illustrated that clearly after 42 and the Birkenau camp).
A very quick glance at what happened at the US-Mexico border makes me think the camps there fit the bill, or at least the usual definition of the word (basically, indiscrinate mass internment).
I would say that any time a group is targeted, deprived of freedom and moved into brutal conditions, comparisons about exactly how bad a given version of a concentration camp is kinda ignores the point that they’re fucking wrong by nature. They are a stain on humanity, period.
And I actually include prisons in the United States as morally equivalent since there’s a disproportionate amount of minorities targeted the be put in there. But at least they had the pretence of due process, so it isn’t the same thing.
And make no mistake, the “holding” facilities were indeed intended to treat humans like filth. And they’re designed in a way that has led to rampant death.
The only reason that deaths haven’t reached genocide levels is no active killing, it’s all passive so that people can ignore or and pretend they aren’t responsible for each and every death that does occur. Any citizen of the United States bears the onus of what w.e did to the Japanese citizens in ww2, and we bear the onus of what has happened, and is still happening to our fellow human beings in this hellholes currently.
What I’m doing here is expressing my disgust with so-called activists and militants that claim to want serious change, but will not risk anything to do it. And yes, it is impossible to do alone, it takes feet on the ground, willing to take any action necessary, and that’s risky. Every attempt to organize a serious effort that I could find failed because nobody was willing to take action. They wanted to fuck around, have a little circle jerk about how bad it was, and go home.
We, as a population, have stood by while our fellow man have been treated worse than we treat animals. Which is pretty bad, if you’ve ever seen industrial farming.
One million, one thousand, one hundred, even one is too many.
Nobody was ever defending them, or the conditions they’re put in. But there’s a difference between something like an actual concentration camp, which sole purpose is to kill ALL that come into it, and something like the modern day holding prisons along the mexican border.
The purpose of those prisons along the border is to dehumanize people, torture them, beat them, and then release them. That is the intended purpose by those that built them. Some people die in those conditions. It is not the intent, but it does happen.
Nobody is argueing that we’re in favor of these prisons. Yes they are awful. They DO kill thousands each year. Nobody is defending that.
I’m just saying in this world both the left and the right are taking the most extreme version of events, try to pass them off as reality, and then wonder why the other side sees them as insane.
Conceptually speaking, an actual concentration camp intentionally kills in less than a half hour what these holding prisons kill in a year. Millions of Jews died in just over 4 years. Something like 40% of their total population at the time. Meanwhile, you could add up 30 years of the border prisons, and they maybe have killed 1% of the population.
I would love to see an easier legal way for mexicans to come to America. I’ve heard the average wait for the legal process to work is 28 years. I’d rather they just fill out some forms, prove that they know the country and can speak passable english, and stamp their entry card. But until that happens, they’re going to try to cross the boarder illegally because it’s their only option.
The only way to remove those prisons, is to basically gut this entire country, and rebuild the culture. We need the culture we were taught exists as kids in school. The America that has not only tolerance, but embracement for other races and peoples. The melting pot of oppertunity is how I was taught this country behaved. Instead I’ve seen racism so thick that a white woman yelled at a native american woman to go back to her country without a hint of irony.
But all of this happens, because half this country WANTS it to happen. And why? Because they’re fed batshit insane stories by their media that tells them we’re all insane for wanting mexicans to become citizens. Then they see you saying that a holding prison is the same as what happens at concentration camps, and it adds to the legitimacy that their opposing side is insane.
Well the thing about lying and manipulation is, the big lie relies on credibility. If I tell you 5 small truths that you already know, and they reinforce your beliefs, then I can tell you a medium lie, and it’s believable. Because if I have a history of telling the truth, then I’ve developed trust with you that you can believe me when I say something you’re not sure of. You don’t know if that medium lie is true or not, but I’ve never steered you wrong before. So even if the medium lie isn’t true, you see it as an inaccuracy rather than a lie.
So these right wing news outlets sprinkle just enough truth, mixed in with reenforcing their own already set opinions that now they can tell small lies all day, and their base won’t even question them. Because they see them as a credible source.
But then they see you saying that a holding cell with inhuman conditions is the same as actual concentration camps, and it becomes very easy for them to see you as insane. Therefore you must be lying, because their news source said you’re lying. So the conditions must not be that bad. And that becomes the narrative. One side vs an opposing side, because both sides are drifting farther and farther apart. Unable to see eye to eye. Both sides acting insane. Neither side willing to comprimise.
And welcome to the modern day. Where reality doesn’t matter as long as corporate interests pay less taxes, and pay less wages. So we ALL suffer.
Man, I truly appreciate the effort and passion you put out there. That’s some beautiful humanity inside you.
The only thing I can say that doesn’t insult what you put out is that, as wonderful as it would be for your hopes to come true, I simply don’t believe it is possible without tearing down the country built on slavery, oligarchy, and sheer hubris, and starting fresh. The system isn’t just broken, it was never whole.
Again, I am so glad to see someone put that much thought into a response to my sheer disgust at the world, and bring hope into the subject. I can’t debate the fine points of it without dishonoring the intent there. So I’ll just say thank you.
Hey that’s great.
Things will have to get a lot worse before people rise up, but it’ll happen eventually.
The Supreme Court even today has over twice the approval rating as Congress (that’s not saying much). Overthrowing one branch of government seems like a novel idea. There is a process for removing justices but it’s never been done before. Only one justice has been impeached, Samuel Chase, and he wasn’t even removed from the bench.
I want to overthrow everything. Just…just all of it. The corrupt leaders. The corrupt police. The capitolistic system which encourages exploitation. The conditions which lead to poverty. The systemic racism. Just…just delete, start new file.
What should we call this new country? I’m thinking “Whoopsiedaisy” has a nice ring to it.
I honestly don’t think the US would come out the other end of a civil war or rebellion as just one country
If everything was started from scratch tomorrow, the likelihood of present day California and Texas naturally ending up together in the same nation is pretty much zero, IMHO.
Those two are kept together by pretty much a country-sized version of a Sunken Cost Falacy.
One can’t even count on language or culture as a unifying element, otherwise the whole of Latin America would be 2 countries, Brasil & Everybody Else.
Could be. Its next to impossible to accurately get the details right on hypotheticals. But what your saying isn’t far fetched. I can see Texas being a country…and reintroducing slaves.
I mean…I’m joking, but I also wouldn’t put it past them.
Is removing a justice more or less difficult than adding more justices?
If I had less to lose, dude. (I’m already on a list, I’m not worried)