This is stupid. There is just as much evidence it came from Fort Detrick.
For the record I don’t think it came from either.
I don’t know why anyone is still talking about a lab outbreak in Wuhan because of the wet market nearby being suspected in mid December, when we know for sure that Covid was in Italy in September/October and possibly as early as May. The world just shrugged at this info because faecal treatment samples aren’t as interesting as as bat soup and bioterrorism.
Racism mostly. Easier to just be racist against the Chinese than to admit COVID is the result of something more nuanced and systemic
Nobody has a problem with Chinese people.
But the CCP needs to be given the Beria treatment.
Nobody has a problem with Chinese people.
https://www.yahoo.com/video/tucker-carlson-guest-military-doesnt-193556601.html
Yeah, and hitler didn’t like jews.
It’s tucker fucking Carlson, duh.
Ask him about gay people and immigrants next.
The clip is actually mainly about his guest, but anyway my point is that your claim was clearly false.
“We don’t hate the Chinese just the government that they like and has made their people prosperous.”
Check what happened to the Russians after the Soviet Union fell and tell me it’s not hate to wish that on the Chinese next.
The USSR (Stalin mostly) broke the Russian people, which is why they’re so weak after its fall.
The CCP broke the Chinese people too. Seems like a common theme.
What does it mean to “break” a people?
The Chinese people were certainly already “broken” in 1949. They had undergone a century of collapse, most were illiterate, women were essentially chattel, and every single grain of wheat or rice more than what was required to keep them alive was stolen by unelected landlords.
The communists took power and every single one of them was taught to read, women were enfranchised, no-fault divorce and abortion were legalized, political rights were expanded, opium and gangs were chased out of the mainland and the feudal lords were held to account.
30 years after the revolution they had turned a society of feudal peasants into a nuclear power, 30 years after that and it’s the world’s largest economy by PPP.
The same things can be said about the Bolsheviks, who defeated a nazi army which sought to annihilate them.
“I’m not racist, nobody has a problem with Chinese people.”
“Also, the Chinese are wild animals that were broken and domesticated.”
Okay there, buckaroo. Keep telling yourself that.
Hahaha what the fuck
going around people’s houses, knocking on doors and telling them that stroganoff had to be made with pork now to break them mentally. it’s true, my grandma told me 
who broke you?
I’m not racist, but here’s my thoughts generalizing entire populations of millions as “weak people” because of their Asiatic brainpans.
And by every major polling organizations metrics the Chinese people overwhelmingly approve of the CPC.
Typical westoid wants to destroy a government that is liked by it’s people. What’s your countries government approval rating? Do you want to overthrow your government too?
I worked there for a good while.
They don’t hate it, they treat it like the weather, something to fear, but nothing you can do anything about.
The CCP broke them completely, much like the USSR broke the Russian people.
I worked there for a good while.
Tell us of the deep abiding wisdom you gained from teaching English at a barely-regulated “school” for 12 months.
Yeah man definitely no racism here
It’s also about laziness. It’s much less effort to just point a finger than to think about the complexities of a situation.
It’s also really easy to dismiss the uncomfortable origin (It came from a Chinese lab) and point to the “complexities of the situation” instead.
Any sources on the virus being discovered in Italy before China? That would change the entire discussion.
https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-italy-timing-idUSKBN27W1J2
There’s no similar tests done in China (that I can find traces of) so we have no idea when the virus started circulating in China. Just like Winnie the Poo likes it.
“signaling that it might have spread beyond China earlier than thought.”
they still suggest Chinese origin
Yup, this idea only works if you believe what the CCP says verbatim.
Well, no, it’s not an “idea”. It just means there’s nothing special about Wuhan that should make us look at everything there as a suspect.
You are wrong, the assumption of people who post this is that there wasn’t COVID-19 in China before the CCP announced it was around.
You’re the one making assumptions I’m afraid.
We don’t know where Covid-19 came from. That is the outcome. It quite well could have come from China. We have no idea. What we do know is that it didn’t spread globally from a wet market in Wuhan that happens to be near a virology research centre. Because that idea hangs entirely on it appearing there first in December.
Covid-19 could have started in China. Or Italy. Or anywhere. We don’t know, and as a species we seem to be very reluctant to find out - we’ve just accepted bat soup or bioterrorism and just moved on. Meaning that we’ve learned absolutely nothing to prevent it happening again.
That’s the thing, the COVID conspiracy people now posting this shirt saying, “SEE!?! IT WAS LAB LEAK!!” as if that justifies every single other insane thing they’ve ever said about COVID. Because there’s a huge difference between “covid CAME FROM a lab” and “lab leak possible origin.” One implies conspiracy, the other implies carelessness. What’s the old saying? ‘Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to greed?’ I very much think the same applies to stupidity—and honestly, in this case, greed probably caused the stupidity. How much funding-slashing has led to calamity in recent times? Plenty.
I think the lab with a long record of carelessness leaking the virus by accident is entirely plausible if not the most reasonable explanation. The issue is not so much about how/when it was leaked, but more along the lines of how poorly they handled the whole situation and subsequent coverup. For all we know, it could have been leaked by accident way earlier.
I think the lab with a long record of carelessness leaking the virus by accident is entirely plausible if not the most reasonable explanation
I personally don’t think it came from Detrick, but I don’t fault you for thinking so
It came from the lab in Wuhan, not Detrick. We shall never really know since every govt, especially China will deny and cover up the truth.
It didn’t come from a lab in Wuhan, it was first discovered in Wuhan but was already going around in Italy for months at that point based on waste samples.
The point was that we have just as much evidence to say it came from Detrick as we do to say it came from a Chinese lab. It most likely didn’t come from either, but only one of these conspiracies gets pushed. If you provide any pushback that maybe China isn’t responsible for COVID you get met with “well they would lie and cover it up, so I might as well be right”
Yeah, I don’t really have any issues with accepting a lab leak possibility, but the lab leak people generally add a whole bunch of other conspiracies on top of that (it was designed as a bioweapon, leaked intentionally, etc), and nobody can really explain why this would be any good as a bioweapon if it hurts you as much as your enemies, and if you release it without having a vaccine for it.
I think the bio weapon part is from people who don’t understand what research is going on lab. They hear “gain of function” research and immediately think Resident Evil type bio weapon.
Not that I agree that type of research is good for us to be doing in the first place. But I do understand the reason we do that type if research is to learn about viruses and how to combat them as they mutate. I think it’s stupid to be doing that type of research anywhere, especially finding China.
“Gain of function” is an extremely broad category that is an absolutely necessary part of molecular biology research.
Exactly The issue is how China handled all of this. America has had leaks before as have other countries. China has several well known leaks.
China is still trying to hide the origins which to me heavily suggest a lab leak.
The original saying is “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
It came from the wild. They, along with Germany and other labs, were researching Sars related wild vectors and the possibility of natural selection causing a new outbreak.
I find it reasonable to believe a biosafety incident at the Wuhan lab infected several of the lab researchers and that led to the pandemic.
But that’s the extent of where things go. Conspiracies about bioweapons are idiotic.
I remembered reading early on that someone sold a carcass from the lab to a wet market. I think that’s probably Western propaganda and I have no idea whether that’s true.
However, in China there were posters in every restaurant saying to avoid eating such meats. They started to appear in the first half of 2020. I saw them in Shanghai, Ningbo, and Hangzhou.
Maybe the government just saw it as a useful opportunity to steer the public toward factory-produced meats that fall under the “safe umbrella” of capitalism. Either one is interesting to think about
I thought this as well (massive safety events being a pretty normal thing, after all) until last year when the wet market swab data was finally analyzed. (After apparently being leaked? Accidentally? Accidentally on purpose?)
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abp8715
“Both early lineages of SARS-CoV-2 were geographically associated with the market”
Hexbear users coming to defend China before even reading the post title:
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I am aware that this news article may be misleading. That’s not the point of my comment.
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They’re coming in with their alts now. If you check some of the profiles on here, look how often China is mentioned and tell me it’s not just obviously Hexbear users with alts
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Sup guys. Just commenting here so you can avoid reading the most brainlet of a take below. Hope you all have a good day.
Looks like lab leak theory is back on the menu boys!
I feel like i’m taking crazy pills!
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Damn even the nonpolitical homies are dunking on this one
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The US funds research on a variety of subjects around the world, many of them only being possible to be researched locally because they are on local diseases and pathogens.
Less regulations, it’s easier to do “funny stuff” like gain of function research (frankly a euphemism for biological warfare research) in China than in the US. And it’s not like the US is just funding the biolab, they have people on site and oversight as well.
What if covid was a terrorist atack on china and iran by obama loyalists? With the aded benefit ithat it put them back in power.
Ah yes, because it’s not like there are any geopolitical reasons that might explain why the NIH would want to decouple from China.
Fact is, you can find infractions from any lab. It’s just a question of whether you want to look.
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Did this thread get nuked? Says there should be 57 comments.
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No self-respecting scientist concluded that either a natural origin or a lab leak were the definitive cause of the pandemic. This is clear if you actually read scientific literature. It’s why phrases akin to “the most supported hypothesis is X” or “the Y theory is unlikely without more supporting evidence” are used. Both hypotheses were and are still possible explanations.
It’s people who get their scientific info from sources like the Telegraph that keep jumping to conclusions. Or people who don’t understand what a section leader at the NIH does, how research grants work, or what gain of function research is. You know, like yourself.
Yeah, it was just coincidence that the exact same strain evolved in the wild and transferred to humans in the same place at the same time!
The original grant was to the EcoHealth Alliance, which then subcontracted the Wuhan institute to collect wild samples from bats. In other words, the whole point of the research was to try and catalogue viruses that existed in the wild with pandemic potential.
It’s not coincidence that lab samples there or in other facilities exist that are close in sequence to viruses later identified in humans. That was, in fact, the goddamn point of surveying bat coronaviruses: to identify those with spillover potential. And it’s absolutely possible one of these collected samples was mishandled and leaked from the lab. After all, lab leaked viral outbreaks happen almost every other year, and there were already safety concerns at this particular site published long before the pandemic.
But what you and every other mouthbreathing idiot is trying to say is that Fauci, a director of the NIAID at the time, personally directed gain of function research to engineer new viruses to infect humans and then that virus escaped. Which, speaking as a molecular biologist myself, is laughably backwards.
It seems like you’ve read enough to get halfway there.
You should go back and read the source documents and go over what ecohealth alliance were actually doing, and where they were doing it. The funding proposals were extremely detailed, right down to carrying out gain of function research to aerosolise the corona viruses harvested from bats.
It is almost impossible to immunise bats using droplet transmission and this is the source of the global fuckup.
At some stage during this process, the modified pathogen from very early stages of developing a corona vaccine FOR BATS (the stated goal of the funding request) it somehow got out of one of the labs involved. (Malice or stupidity, we’ll never know)
At that stage it would still be fair to call the original escaped variant a VIRUS because it had not yet reached the development stage of being attenuated sufficiently to be called a vaccine, but it was a long way from a wild type variant.
This lines up with early sequencing of the virus that is widely documented. Those with any scientific integrity have acknowledged from day 1 that there were portions of the sequence that can not occur without human intervention.
In short, this was all being done with US funding in labs with woefully inadequate safety protocols.
So long as we are prepared to accept the risk/reward profile of gain of function research being carried out anywhere in the world, the risk of a similar global pandemic will never go away.
Grant Project Number: 2R01AI110964-06
“Aim 1. Characterize the diversity and distribution of high spillover-risk SARSr-CoVs in bats in southern China. We will use phylogeographic and viral discovery curve analyses to target additional bat sample collection and molecular CoV screening to fill in gaps in our previous sampling and fully characterize natural SARSr-CoV diversity in southern China. We will sequence receptor binding domains (spike proteins) to identify viruses with the highest potential for spillover which we will include in our experimental investigations (Aim 3). Aim 2. Community, and clinic-based syndromic, surveillance to capture SARSr-CoV spillover, routes of exposure and potential public health consequences. We will conduct biological-behavioral surveillance in high-risk populations, with known bat contact, in community and clinical settings to 1) identify risk factors for serological and PCR evidence of bat SARSr-CoVs; & 2) assess possible health effects of SARSr-CoVs infection in people. We will analyze bat-CoV serology against human-wildlife contact and exposure data to quantify risk factors and health impacts of SARSr-CoV spillover. Aim 3. In vitro and in vivo characterization of SARSr-CoV spillover risk, coupled with spatial and phylogenetic analyses to identify the regions and viruses of public health concern. We will use S protein sequence data, infectious clone technology, in vitro and in vivo infection experiments and analysis of receptor binding to test the hypothesis that % divergence thresholds in S protein sequences predict spillover potential.”
Color me shocked, but that’s the funding proposal and there’s nothing in there even approaching whatever you’re talking about. But hey, maybe you’re referring to the rejected DARPA grant proposal leaked by DRASTIC:
“THE PROPOSAL PLANNED TO INTRODUCE “KEY RBD RESIDUES” INTO LOW RISK STRAINS TO TEST PATHOGENICITY IN HUMAN AIRWAY-CELLS”
Wowie, looks like we have a hit! Rather than reading their spin though, I went and found the REJECTED grant proposal:
“We will sequence spike proteins, reverse engineer them to conduct binding assays, and insert them into bat SARSr-CoV backbones (these use bat-SARSr-CoV backbones, not SARS-CoV, and are exempt from dual-use and gain or function concerns)”
If you’re not aware, these backbones are common lab vectors which aren’t pathogenic themselves, made from different viruses. Their sequences are significantly different than either SARS-CoV or SARS-CoV-2. So, chimeric receptor/backbone pairs are used to assess viral entry into humanized cells more so than virulence. You may disagree with whether or not that’s still too dangerous of a method, but it’s a moot point here because 1. The backbones proposed here are completely different than COVID, so it can’t be the same viral agent and 2. This is a REJECTED PROPOSAL. None of this was actually done and it’s fantasy to pretend it is.
Next claim: aerosolized droplet for vaccines:
“We will complement [broad scale immune boosting with bat interferon] by coupling agonist treatments with SARSr-CoV recombinant spike proteins to boost pre-existing adaptive immune response in adult bats… we will incorporate [recombinant spike proteins] into nano particles or raccoon pox virus vectors for delivery to bats”
They’re not proposing aerosolizing whole droplets with competent SARS-CoV in them you moron, they’re basically saying “hey, you know those nasal sprays we use for the flu every year? Let’s give that to bats”.
Ooh, my favorite. No scientist with integrity says that the genome wasn’t manipulated.
You’re gonna have to tell that to the couple hundred scientists who have been studying this for a while:
“There is no logical reason why an engineered virus would utilize such a suboptimal furin cleavage site, which would entail such an un- usual and needlessly complex feat of genetic engineering. The only previous studies of artificial insertion of a furin cleavage site at the S1/S2 boundary in the SARS-CoV spike protein uti- lized an optimal ‘‘RRSRR’’ sequence in pseudotype systems (Belouzard et al., 2009; Follis et al., 2006). Further, there is no ev- idence of prior research at the WIV involving the artificial insertion of complete furin cleavage sites into coronaviruses.”
There really isn’t any evidence of manipulation at all. The backbone isn’t a standard lab construct. The cleavage site could have arisen from recombination. In the spirit of good science, I would never rule anything out, but the evidence very much supports a natural origin. Lab leak from a sample? Maybe, but that’s different than genetic engineering. For that you need stronger evidence. The strongest bit of evidence we have is the stonewalling from WIV and China, which is certainly suspicious. But, it’s unfortunately incidental and that isn’t good enough to jump to conclusions.
Try actually reading the text of these proposals before reading someone else’s spin on it.
I am somehow still surprised at how many of my intelligent, educated healthcare coworkers believe in the purposeful bio weapon theory despite there being no evidence of human-made genetic manipulation. We can analyze whole genomes now, there’s no need to make shit up.
Yeah, it’s pretty sad. But I have fun digging into the sources for the misinformation, so there’s that.
If you were secure in your beliefs, you could use logic, science, or evidence.
You use insults. I question, you insult. Who is wrong?
Funny, you haven’t “questioned” anything. You’ve just regurgitated your same tired disproven talking points. Then you act like your viewpoint deserves respect. It doesn’t. No sources, no evidence, no respect.
If you’d like my sources, here you go. Let me know when you find the spot that says “I, Fauci, personally oversaw the development of a virus that looks absurdly natural in origin.”
The original grant proposal for EcoHealth Alliance: https://reporter.nih.gov/project-details/9819304
Every relevant follow up study produced under that grant proposal:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6171170/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7094983/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6178078/
I haven’t posted any evidence because I’ve only posted reservations about the narrative. You have chosen to attack me personally and you FINALLY posted several studies that do not say anything about containment, lab procedure, the contents of the lab, or anything else that might assuage my doubts. What they do prove is that gain of function research was being performed on SARS in the area where the pandemic first started. You accuse me of being irrational when you’re losing your god damned mind at the very idea that the lab could be the source of the pandemic.
Quite a fast reader, aren’t you?
Please cite the spot in those documents that “prove gain of function research was being performed on SARS in the area the pandemic first started”
sigh I know you’ve probably either already made up your mind or you’re not arguing in good faith, so I’m not gonna engage any further except to say that it’s entirely possible for a virologist to do research on zoonotic viruses. Just because it’s a bat virus doesn’t mean it stays a bat virus.
Also, there are probably billions if not trillions or quadrillions of individual COVID viruses out there. Each time a new one’s made, there’s a chance for it to mutate into something else. It’s totally possible for a virus to evolve similar features in separate environments. I believe the term, “convergent evolution” applies here, and you can find examples larger than viruses in plants and animals, where even separate species can sometimes evolve the same features independently from one another. Carcinisation is an extreme example of this.
Just so you know, not only them are reading your response. I appreciate your response.
And as someone that isn’t working in the field, I have to admit that it is very illogical that they would conduct gain-of-function research on coronaviruses in a country previously hit by a coronavirus outbreak while violating safety standards. Obviously that’s hindsight but shouldn’t this be very obviously a bad idea? It’s not like the existence of a virus like COVID-19/sarscov-2 was completely unexpected.
I mean, you’d do the research where you would be finding the wild zoonotic pathogens you want to study. So the location makes perfect sense.
The biosafety issues are more just a long-standing problem with how science is done in China in general, which is overall bad.
So you admit that China has lax protocols, and that the US and China were studying the same virus that became a problem later, but you offer me nothing but insults for wondering if that same virus leaked from that same poor quality lab.
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills.
Oh, I guess since it was “illogical” there is no way that could be the origin.
I meant what actually happened is illogical to me. So I’m simply a bit confused and understand that there might be some nuance that I’m missing.
And I think an accidental leak is absolutely possible, it’s only that a conscious effort by China and the USA is unrealistic.
Of course virologists study viruses, and sloppy government labs in backwater parts of authoritarian countries have lax safety protocols. You haven’t contradicted me one time. You’ve just thrown up strawmen and irrelevant arguments.
That doesn’t prove shit. You understand that nothing you say there is contributing to your argument, right?
You understand that I’m just casting doubt on the official narrative and the people arguing are the ones vested in their narrative, right?
The gain of function research on the same wild virus being done in conjunction with Germany?
Do you know any of the actual details of the project, where they were collecting wild bats infected with the proto version of Covid and were splitting up different components of the research to different labs?
The Wuhan group were researching the viral backbone and Germany the viral antigens.
The same sort of collaboration done on many other potentially concerning natural vector diseases.
You’re so invested in your narrative.
You mean I’ve actually read the scientific data and evidence going back years before the pandemic? The research they were doing there and in Germany was well known and openly available. Published papers and all.
You haven’t read anything that proves COVID-19 wasn’t a lab leak, and everything you’ve read filtered through the people responsible. But you are invested in convincing me it wasn’t.
How do you think scientific publications work?
They don’t go through the high council of evil science-lords first.
Now I want to be invited to an evil science-lord convention.
Bonus points if it is held in an underground volcanic lair.
Have you seen any scientific publications posted to these comments that prove the pandimic didn’t result from a lab leak? I haven’t.
What possible evidence would there be to “prove” this negative? Maybe if we happened to find the exact source animal to test? Since that is unlikely, all we have to go is the genome of the virus compared to similar viruses in the wild and similar viruses in published research. And that wouldn’t be proof enough for you.
There are a ton now, which you already replied to. If only you’d post your own now.
The very scientist who first suggested that Covid was man-made changed his mind after doing further research and discovering that the components he thought were man-made were actually found in other wild Sars viruses.
You’re the one who refuses to listen to actual evidence beyond the initial claims you first heard.
The only evidence you’ve presented is the statement that Germany was involved.
If so, you’re two of a kind.
I’ve yet to be given one solid reason to question my questioning of the official narrative. The other guy only posted character attacks and appeals to questionable authorities.
Do you just… like… look in a mirror, then post random comments attacking people for your own failings or something? Cause that’s what seems to be happening.
Where did you see me attack anybody? You should be able to quote me. What seems to be happening from my perspective is a bunch of people with poor reading comprehension or no integrity attacking me for doubting the official narrative.
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I question narratives and I’m met by insults. If the people responding had any evidence or were secure in their narrative they wouldn’t need to resort to insults first.
Have they found an animal with a strain related to the human variant? Isn’t that the main evidence they expect to be able to find to help prove it actually had a path from animal to human?
If so, I haven’t seen it. As far as I can tell, investigating the narrative is off limits. You can see how every person who has responded to my questioning has attacked me on a personal level.
I don’t know if those attacking you are right or wrong in the narrative they believe, but they’re definitely jumping to conclusions about people who choose to believe in the possibility of a lab leak and subsequent coverup. It seems they think all of us to be conspiracy theory nutjobs with alt-right ideologies.
Personally, I started believing the lab leak stuff may be legit when I watch johnny harris’s video. I figured Johnny Harris was giving a decent take on the whole situation. He had numerous reasons for coming to the conclusions he did, and it all seems decently reasonable.
But recently it’s come to my attention that maybe Harris isn’t the most reliable source. While I can’t recall the details atm, I have read and watched stuff about Harris that does call into question his biases. At the same time, I don’t believe anyone has said anything against his factual accuracy. But the slant of a presentation and possibly excluded information can do quite a bit for undermining a narrative if you really want to do that. So, its hard to say if you should believe his story about the lab leak.
But, It’s not like I’m gonna do anything useful with my opinion on the topic…. So I’m not going to waste time seriously investing in researching the topic.
Edit: Reworded, and added context that I completely left out the first time around.
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
I made a couple of jumps in thought that I did not originally put into that comment. It’s been updated to, hopefully, be much clearer.
So wild that people are reacting so violently to mere questioning. Makes me wonder if these comments are being astroturfed by vested parties.
Source on that claim?
