A slur is an insulting or disparaging remark (according to the dictionary). Our contention is not over the definition of that word (I hope), but over whether the use of offensive language (such as slurs) is categorically unacceptable.
There are lots of slurs, but only a handful cross the line (for me at least), because I consider them to exclusively and belligerently perpetuate some evil ideology (usually racism). I don’t want to list these words here, but I can think of maybe 3 or 4.
There is no such thing as empirical evidence for an emotionally qualitative claim.
Well, history is not a matter of emotion. It is a matter of empirical fact. We can trace the origins and common usage of words, and the n-word is no exception. That body of knowledge is the product of research (historical data). The (mis)use of the medical term “retard” is also well understood. Its transference to colloquial slang is actually unexceptionable. Consider “psycho” or “cretin.” In the same vein, the word “autist” is now being used disparagingly among teenagers being goofy or weird, and so on.
“Autist” may not be sticky enough to require the medical community to come up with an alternative, more technical (and therefore less appealing) term for that mental disorder.
Regardless, people will continue to look for ways to call each other stupid, and the best thing we can do is encourage researchers to come up with long and convoluted names for medical conditions so they don’t get co-opted by teenagers looking for creative ways to insult each other.
The unfortunate truth is, yes. We are blameworthy for all acts independent of intention or context, because we have to be responsible for everything we do.
Well, yes and no. You have a responsibility to be mindful of those around you. But they also have a responsibility to at least attempt to understand what you’re trying to say. If we ignore your intentions, the result is tantamount to willful misunderstanding.
Remember, we are apes. Nothing more. Language is complex, and the average person is painfully, animalistically stupid. That’s why we have to be charitable to one another and give folks leeway to communicate without losing our shit over misunderstandings.
Autist” may not be sticky enough to require the medical community to come up with an alternative, more technical (and therefore less appealing) term for that mental disorder.
Regardless, people will continue to look for ways to call each other stupid, and the best thing we can do is encourage researchers to come up with long and convoluted names for medical conditions so they don’t get co-opted by teenagers looking for creative ways to insult each other.
That’s not the best thing we can do. We don’t have to waste time trying to avoid giving teenagers ammunition, and we certainly don’t have to do it by giving people with learning disabilities a diagnosis that could be hard for them to remember or understand.
Teenagers don’t need ammunition. The reason “autist” isn’t sticky enough, the reason it’s not used colloquially, the reason it’s only an insult for teenagers and people with the emotional maturity of the average teenager is because it’s an actual diagnosis with an increasingly well-studied list of symptoms, and standards of care, and moral implications.
It should serve the same vernacular niche as “retard” but it doesn’t seem to be doing so. Adults don’t say “that’s autistic” with good intentions. They do say “that’s retarded” with good intentions. Why? Because being a “retard” was a blanket diagnosis with no real treatment options, and no real empirical evidence of its value as a diagnostic label. It was too broad and too vague and therefore effectively synonymous with “very stupid.” “Autistic” isn’t synonymous with stupid.
You have a responsibility to be mindful of those around you. But they also have a responsibility to at least attempt to understand what you’re trying to say.
I really do think we agree completely for the rest of this, this might just be semantics. They do, absolutely, have that responsibility. You are blameworthy for your acts. And they are blameworthy for their’s in response. The whole point is that you and they are entitled to beliefs and feelings, just as you and they are responsible for words and actions. If you are judged poorly for doing the right thing, then you can blame them for that. And they can blame you for the things they’re judging you for.
They’re entitled to that, because yes we are just apes trying to grasp at moral truths that are not written in the stars or the atoms of the world, and in fact some of these moral truths appear to be actively in contention with many of our ape-derived biological and psychological functions.
And we very often get things wrong. And yes, we have to try to be charitable and give each other leeway. I think that you and I do disagree on some fundamental information, and I think you and I have given each other plenty of leeway, and managed to communicate in a healthy and productive way.
I’m asking you - why should that stop here? Don’t the people offended by a term deserve some charitable consideration? Some leeway? They’re communicating a feeling that they have. They feel upset. They feel offended. They feel angry. Are they entitled to those feelings? Yes. Can you blame them for those feelings? You are entitled to.
But many of them won’t understand or believe your intentions are good. Is that their fault? That they can’t see into the mind of a fellow ape, and know your heart is pure?
The transference of “retard” from medical diagnosis to colloquial slang is actually exceptionable. Because it appears to be the last one in the list for this particular group of people. The last one to be so pervasive, so ubiquitous, and so synonymous with “stupid”. There were plenty of others before… but what’s the next one?
It’s not about disarming teenagers. It’s about trying to learn more. It’s about seeing each other’s intentions, and actions, and needs. And it’s about not using a word so stained by bad intentions, so villainous in action, and so dismissive of needs.
When a doctor told a parent their son was mentally retarded… that was it. They just were. For the rest of their life. They were a “retard.” And the parents just had to deal with it.
When a doctor tells a parent their son is autistic, they follow it with “here’s what that means.” Here’s a couple of potential reasons why they might be the way they are. Here’s what their life might look like as an adult, based on these studies. Here’s the coping mechanisms you can try to teach them, here’s the educational methods that seem to work best, here’s the support structure that you need to build.
Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But the whole point is it is far, far better than it ever was with the word “retard”, and we as apes and as a collection of apes know so, so much more now. That’s why “that’s autistic” doesn’t mean “that’s stupid” for most people, and therefore why it also doesn’t replace “that’s retarded” for most people.
The term itself was deeply flawed from the beginning, as was idiot, as was cretin. I do blame the people that came up with it, and used it. But I don’t think they were bad people. I don’t hate them. I think they were acting with good intentions, and probably with the best information that they could find in context.
I just also think they caused a lot of harm by inventing a diagnosis that was far too broad to be medically or socially useful. They can be blamed for that. It was their responsibility to do no harm, and they did harm. That doesn’t make them worthy of shame, or bad people. It just makes them human.
But “autist” is used colloquially — all the time. That’s my point. I mean that it hasn’t entered wider usage outside of high schools, twitch, and discord. Boomers don’t use it as an insult (yet).
I didn’t say “autistic” is synonymous with stupid. Usually it’s used to mean you’re excessively or neurotically detail-oriented.
You’re absolutely right. You didn’t say that “autistic” is synonymous with stupid, I wasn’t accusing you of doing so. Neither of us believe it is synonymous, people don’t think it’s synonymous, and it’s no surprise that people will instead use it colloquially to mean “excessively detail-oriented”.
Is that so terrible? I don’t think so. I wouldn’t use it that way, but I also don’t say things like “I’m so OCD” for that same purpose - and I don’t think it’s a terrible thing to do that either! I wouldn’t use those terms like that, for the record, nor do I think others should. But I don’t think it’s anywhere on the same level, and I don’t think it ever will be.
I think it’s insensitive to use “autistic” and “OCD” in this way because it runs the risk of blinding us to other people’s struggles when we normalize their symptoms as “standard neurotypical problem but worse”.
But do you see how specific that concern is? Do you see how far we’ve come? To even care about the idea of not being able to see someone’s symptoms? To discuss how it might be insensitive to not even know someone else has a mental condition?
Being “detail-oriented” is not by itself a bad thing. It doesn’t bear any terrible inplications of your value or worth to society. It doesn’t suggest that you can’t be trusted to make decisions, or hold a job. If anything some people are starting to think the opposite.
Which is also problematic, because we sometimes romanticize symptoms as super powers - but do you see? Do you see how far we’ve progressed, when we have to start worrying that people will assume neurodivergent people are too capable?
So calling someone “autistic” when you want to call them “detail-oriented” is insensitive, sure. It might even be labelled as ignorant - but look how high that bar of ignorance is! “Detail-oriented” is simply the most recognizable symptom of a particular flavor of neurodivergence - and using it colloquially like that suggests that you already know how the disorder works!
In the past, children and adults with autism weren’t called autistic. Even after the diagnosis was added to the DSM, it went criminally underdiagnosed for a long time.
Some of them, the ones that didn’t strongly present symptoms that disrupted their lives, the ones that could mask their behaviors - they were just called “detail-oriented”. They were just “weird”.
But most of them? The ones that had trouble speaking? The ones that had trouble looking you in the eye? They weren’t called “detail-oriented.” They were called retarded.
Do you see how it might be different to call someone “retarded” when you want to call them “stupid”? How much deeper the implications run? How much worse the associations are?
A slur is an insulting or disparaging remark (according to the dictionary). Our contention is not over the definition of that word (I hope), but over whether the use of offensive language (such as slurs) is categorically unacceptable.
There are lots of slurs, but only a handful cross the line (for me at least), because I consider them to exclusively and belligerently perpetuate some evil ideology (usually racism). I don’t want to list these words here, but I can think of maybe 3 or 4.
Well, history is not a matter of emotion. It is a matter of empirical fact. We can trace the origins and common usage of words, and the n-word is no exception. That body of knowledge is the product of research (historical data). The (mis)use of the medical term “retard” is also well understood. Its transference to colloquial slang is actually unexceptionable. Consider “psycho” or “cretin.” In the same vein, the word “autist” is now being used disparagingly among teenagers being goofy or weird, and so on.
“Autist” may not be sticky enough to require the medical community to come up with an alternative, more technical (and therefore less appealing) term for that mental disorder.
Regardless, people will continue to look for ways to call each other stupid, and the best thing we can do is encourage researchers to come up with long and convoluted names for medical conditions so they don’t get co-opted by teenagers looking for creative ways to insult each other.
Well, yes and no. You have a responsibility to be mindful of those around you. But they also have a responsibility to at least attempt to understand what you’re trying to say. If we ignore your intentions, the result is tantamount to willful misunderstanding.
Remember, we are apes. Nothing more. Language is complex, and the average person is painfully, animalistically stupid. That’s why we have to be charitable to one another and give folks leeway to communicate without losing our shit over misunderstandings.
That’s not the best thing we can do. We don’t have to waste time trying to avoid giving teenagers ammunition, and we certainly don’t have to do it by giving people with learning disabilities a diagnosis that could be hard for them to remember or understand.
Teenagers don’t need ammunition. The reason “autist” isn’t sticky enough, the reason it’s not used colloquially, the reason it’s only an insult for teenagers and people with the emotional maturity of the average teenager is because it’s an actual diagnosis with an increasingly well-studied list of symptoms, and standards of care, and moral implications.
It should serve the same vernacular niche as “retard” but it doesn’t seem to be doing so. Adults don’t say “that’s autistic” with good intentions. They do say “that’s retarded” with good intentions. Why? Because being a “retard” was a blanket diagnosis with no real treatment options, and no real empirical evidence of its value as a diagnostic label. It was too broad and too vague and therefore effectively synonymous with “very stupid.” “Autistic” isn’t synonymous with stupid.
I really do think we agree completely for the rest of this, this might just be semantics. They do, absolutely, have that responsibility. You are blameworthy for your acts. And they are blameworthy for their’s in response. The whole point is that you and they are entitled to beliefs and feelings, just as you and they are responsible for words and actions. If you are judged poorly for doing the right thing, then you can blame them for that. And they can blame you for the things they’re judging you for.
They’re entitled to that, because yes we are just apes trying to grasp at moral truths that are not written in the stars or the atoms of the world, and in fact some of these moral truths appear to be actively in contention with many of our ape-derived biological and psychological functions.
And we very often get things wrong. And yes, we have to try to be charitable and give each other leeway. I think that you and I do disagree on some fundamental information, and I think you and I have given each other plenty of leeway, and managed to communicate in a healthy and productive way.
I’m asking you - why should that stop here? Don’t the people offended by a term deserve some charitable consideration? Some leeway? They’re communicating a feeling that they have. They feel upset. They feel offended. They feel angry. Are they entitled to those feelings? Yes. Can you blame them for those feelings? You are entitled to.
But many of them won’t understand or believe your intentions are good. Is that their fault? That they can’t see into the mind of a fellow ape, and know your heart is pure?
The transference of “retard” from medical diagnosis to colloquial slang is actually exceptionable. Because it appears to be the last one in the list for this particular group of people. The last one to be so pervasive, so ubiquitous, and so synonymous with “stupid”. There were plenty of others before… but what’s the next one?
It’s not about disarming teenagers. It’s about trying to learn more. It’s about seeing each other’s intentions, and actions, and needs. And it’s about not using a word so stained by bad intentions, so villainous in action, and so dismissive of needs.
When a doctor told a parent their son was mentally retarded… that was it. They just were. For the rest of their life. They were a “retard.” And the parents just had to deal with it.
When a doctor tells a parent their son is autistic, they follow it with “here’s what that means.” Here’s a couple of potential reasons why they might be the way they are. Here’s what their life might look like as an adult, based on these studies. Here’s the coping mechanisms you can try to teach them, here’s the educational methods that seem to work best, here’s the support structure that you need to build.
Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But the whole point is it is far, far better than it ever was with the word “retard”, and we as apes and as a collection of apes know so, so much more now. That’s why “that’s autistic” doesn’t mean “that’s stupid” for most people, and therefore why it also doesn’t replace “that’s retarded” for most people.
The term itself was deeply flawed from the beginning, as was idiot, as was cretin. I do blame the people that came up with it, and used it. But I don’t think they were bad people. I don’t hate them. I think they were acting with good intentions, and probably with the best information that they could find in context.
I just also think they caused a lot of harm by inventing a diagnosis that was far too broad to be medically or socially useful. They can be blamed for that. It was their responsibility to do no harm, and they did harm. That doesn’t make them worthy of shame, or bad people. It just makes them human.
I really like your response and I needed a minute to read it. Let me reply later.
But “autist” is used colloquially — all the time. That’s my point. I mean that it hasn’t entered wider usage outside of high schools, twitch, and discord. Boomers don’t use it as an insult (yet).
I didn’t say “autistic” is synonymous with stupid. Usually it’s used to mean you’re excessively or neurotically detail-oriented.
You’re absolutely right. You didn’t say that “autistic” is synonymous with stupid, I wasn’t accusing you of doing so. Neither of us believe it is synonymous, people don’t think it’s synonymous, and it’s no surprise that people will instead use it colloquially to mean “excessively detail-oriented”.
Is that so terrible? I don’t think so. I wouldn’t use it that way, but I also don’t say things like “I’m so OCD” for that same purpose - and I don’t think it’s a terrible thing to do that either! I wouldn’t use those terms like that, for the record, nor do I think others should. But I don’t think it’s anywhere on the same level, and I don’t think it ever will be.
I think it’s insensitive to use “autistic” and “OCD” in this way because it runs the risk of blinding us to other people’s struggles when we normalize their symptoms as “standard neurotypical problem but worse”.
But do you see how specific that concern is? Do you see how far we’ve come? To even care about the idea of not being able to see someone’s symptoms? To discuss how it might be insensitive to not even know someone else has a mental condition?
Being “detail-oriented” is not by itself a bad thing. It doesn’t bear any terrible inplications of your value or worth to society. It doesn’t suggest that you can’t be trusted to make decisions, or hold a job. If anything some people are starting to think the opposite.
Which is also problematic, because we sometimes romanticize symptoms as super powers - but do you see? Do you see how far we’ve progressed, when we have to start worrying that people will assume neurodivergent people are too capable?
So calling someone “autistic” when you want to call them “detail-oriented” is insensitive, sure. It might even be labelled as ignorant - but look how high that bar of ignorance is! “Detail-oriented” is simply the most recognizable symptom of a particular flavor of neurodivergence - and using it colloquially like that suggests that you already know how the disorder works!
In the past, children and adults with autism weren’t called autistic. Even after the diagnosis was added to the DSM, it went criminally underdiagnosed for a long time.
Some of them, the ones that didn’t strongly present symptoms that disrupted their lives, the ones that could mask their behaviors - they were just called “detail-oriented”. They were just “weird”.
But most of them? The ones that had trouble speaking? The ones that had trouble looking you in the eye? They weren’t called “detail-oriented.” They were called retarded.
Do you see how it might be different to call someone “retarded” when you want to call them “stupid”? How much deeper the implications run? How much worse the associations are?