People didn’t talk about wanting a sex change, but loads of us hated our bodies and wanted to wake up in different ones. Given the option and institutional support and reassurance that transitioning would help us, many of us probably would have been convinced to do so
This is actually one of my primary concerns regarding transgenderism in the modern day. I think it’s a tool in the toolbelt for when it’s necessary. I also think it’s a tool we reach for much more often than is necessary.
The comparable example I like to give is adhd. It isn’t binary. You don’t just have it or don’t have it. Some people have symptoms that need no intervention. Some people have symptoms but are misdiagnosed as adhd. Other people get by with therapy alone. Yet others find medication necessary to be functional.
Giving gender affirming care to all people with gender or body dysphoria is like giving high dose Adderall to all people who have trouble paying attention in history class. It’s the nuclear option, and you’re using it on someone who may not even have adhd, or may not require such a strong intervention.
I know everyone hates this word, but starting with more conservative treatments first is the norm throughout healthcare for exactly this reason. We’ve made an exception for transgender people for political reasons, not scientific ones.
You already have to go through tons of therapy and other conservative treatments before you get a sex change operation. That exists TODAY. Same with abortion.
No one can get it on a whim. Doctors require requisites to make sure it’s right for you, and it should stay up to the doctors’ discretion.
It’s nonsense saying it’s overused as if doctors and the patient don’t know what they’re about to go through.
Funny how no one ever considers this. It’s like they think some 12 year old can one day on a whim go to their doctor and ask for a sex change and they’ll start them on meds that day like hey I didn’t see my kid for the afternoon and now he’s got breasts what the hell!
I’m not the guy you responded to, but I have a similar concern…not with institutional gender affirming care, I don’t know enough about that to comment on it. My concern is with the social aspect, especially with kids. There’s no such thing as a feminine man anymore; now if you’re anything less than hypermasculine there’s pressure to announce yourself as trans. It’s silly, and it’s a fad, and I hope (and assume) our medical/therapy professionals are willing and able to see past it.
Today’s younger generation is way more accepting of differences than any previous generation I’ve seen, and I’m Gen X.
Today’s teenagers have friends who are gay, straight, trans, questioning, masculine, feminine, asexual, etc. and they’re totally cool with it. They’re like, you be you.
There’s, like, 2 billion kids in the world, so I’m sure it depends on which kids you know. I’m not plugged into the broader cultural scene for kids nowadays, and I don’t have any of my own, so this is all from anecdoes from my nieces/nephews/friends’ kids/random teenagers on reddit
All of which to say, what I’ve heard about the peer pressure may not be the norm. I hope it’s not.
In other words, you didn’t actually do any real research—you made a bunch of assumptions based on what someone you know said and some propaganda you heard floating around. And it is very clear that is the case.
If you have not investigated the matter then you should not speak because whatever you have to say of it will be nothing more than babble. Maybe let us transgender folk speak to our experience. There’s plenty of feminine men out there. There’s a whole aesthetics for that particular flavor of queer, most most famously femboy. There are also demi-sexualities where someone not quite one or the other such as demiboys.
Maybe sit down and take the time to learn about things instead of having a knee-jerk opinion on the matter. There’s a lot to parse and if you think it is too much, that’s on you. For us, we know what we are and most of us have known for most of our lives. I didn’t transition until I was 35, but I knew what I was when I 4 or 5. I just didn’t have any way of expressing it and understood if I did I would be either in trouble or in danger. Contrary to popular opinion, children can and do pick up on those subtexts. No one transitions out of peer pressure—if anything the pressure is on us to not transition. That’s true regardless of age and the fact you don’t understand this shows you haven’t done any research.
What you’ve said doesn’t really seem to me to be true in the slightest. There are many, many role models of feminine men around (F1nnst3r for a very obvious example), and the nuances of gender expression allow this so much more than in the past. We have clear conceptual differences between feminine men, non binary people, and trans women, and people are more than allowed to fit into any category they like (or build their own!).
This isn’t the divide between the Catholic and Protestant church.
Socially, strict gender roles are losing relevance. A well groomed man with long hair is just that. Nobody thinks it means he wants to be a woman unless they harbor the misogynistic opinion that women are defined by long hair.
Gender affirmative care isn’t even specific to transition care. It’s any surgery that is intended to make the recipient feel more like their gender e.g. breast implants, cosmetic chest surgery to fix concave chest.
How about, if people want a sex change operation, you let them have it?
Why have a discussion at all?
If people want to get a tattoo all over their face, society lets them, no therapy necessary. If people want to mutilate their nipples and genitals with piercings, no therapy necessary.
Just, let people be themselves, get out of their way.
We’ve made an exception for transgender people because withholding care leads directly to worse, catastrophically worse, life outcomes. We don’t start with conservative options when treating severe PCOS or similar disfiguring conditions. That’s a bad faith argument. The younger you transition, the better your chance of living a normal life. The more gatekeeping there is, the more lives you ruin, forever. Gatekeeping gender affirming care leads directly to a lifetime of ostracization and eventual suicide.
I also think it’s a tool we reach for much more often than is necessary.
Do you have any evidence for this? Because the vast majority of people who transition stick with it, and the vast majority of people who don’t go back because of social pressures. here is an article about how many people are happy with the care they receive, I really think you should read it.
The comparable example I like to give is adhd. It isn’t binary. You don’t just have it or don’t have it.
Yes, you either have it or you don’t. You either have diagnosable, actual adhd or you don’t. Sure, it can be worse for some people. But to be diagnosed, it has to be causing you problems in your life. Mental illnesses aren’t something that everyone has to some extent.
Other people get by with therapy alone. Yet others find medication necessary to be functional.
Yes, people cope with their issues in different ways. Same for trans people. Most don’t get top or bottom surgery, for example.
I know everyone hates this word, but starting with more conservative treatments first is the norm throughout healthcare for exactly this reason. We’ve made an exception for transgender people for political reasons, not scientific ones.
I hate the word conservative for reasons completely unrelated to how you use it here, I’m not sure why you’d mention it. And there’s not an exception for trans heathcare, why would you think that?
Mental illnesses aren’t something that everyone has to some extent.
I very much disagree. Many mental illnesses are defined as “the same trait a mentally healthy person has, just too much or too little, to the point where it’s causing them distress and interfering with their lives”.
Nearly everything is a spectrum. Even the few things that have quantifiable biological markers are usually present in neurotypical people as well, just at a more “normal” level.
Right. (some) Mental illnesses are when that trait is so severe it causes problems for the person. That trait is something everyone has, but not the mental illness. Mental illness is specifically when that trait is severe. It would be saying everyone has a severe issue to some extent, even if it’s not severe for them. It just doesn’t make sense, and to me weakens what mental illness actually is. If people use adhd to just mean attention issues, even ones so minor they don’t cause a person problems, it undermines the word.
Edit: didn’t mean to delete the parent comment, I accidentally posted twice. It was the same as above in the thread.
Someone has reported this as “transphobic” so I just want to be clear that every situation is different and people are entitled to express their concerns. There are people who are living their best life afterwards and people that do not get what they expect out of transitioning. It is complex and not something I’m going to sit here and pretend I even understand 100%. I’m just the mod, not an expert. That being said, I’m not just going to censor anyone on here for a mild skepticism. That is your teachable moment if you have something to say. Some people really never never encounter these issues first hand. That doesn’t mean they’re coming from a place of hate, just confusion, ignorance, etc. Let us be wary not to confuse the two paths and let us remember love leads everyone back regardless of the path. And that’s all I’ve got to say about that. :)
I’m going to leave that to their discretion without argument. This is a subject matter I am not heavily familiar with. I really don’t even understand some of these comments myself.
It’s silly that this reasonable comment is being mass downvoted. Things that permanently change people should be done carefully and with a lot of safety checks. We can all agree on that.
For me all of this gets more important the younger the kid is.
I have no bone in this fight, but people shouting like we have all of this 100% figured out is simply wrong.
In fact what I’m seeing is, conservatives are anti trans, which is 100% wrong, so liberals are going 180 against them and claiming everyone should be transitioning.
I was listening to a discussion where a gay man was saying that when he was young, he might have been pushed to transition because he was effeminate, when really he was just gay and is now a happy gay man.
Anyway, I wish people would just come off the extremes and we bring in nuance and humility. Admitting that there is a lot about the human body and mind that we simply don’t understand yet.
It’s being downvoted because it’s both a false equivalency and a strawman. I have never heard of anyone arguing that anyone with a hint of dysphoria should be immediately pushed to fully transition, except in extremely unreliable “news” sources with an anti-trans agenda.
The current standard of care in medicine, especially for children, is already quite cautious. You can’t just show up at the doctor tomorrow and go under the knife the day after. It’s more likely to be too difficult, as you have to be fortunate enough to find a supportive medical team within traveling distance.
Liberals arent going 180 and saying everyone should transition.
Liberals are saying it’s none of your business and let people make their own life choices. If they want to transition, then let them. If they don’t, let them. If they change their mind later, let them.
Everyone has to learn their are consequences to their choices and if they transition before they are sure, it’s their choice and their consequences to deal with.
Things that permanently change people should be done carefully and with a lot of safety checks. We can all agree on that.
Everyone does, and they are being done with lots of checks. The above comment isn’t saying that though. They’re claiming that those checks aren’t being done, which is just not true. The rate people regret gender reassignment surgery is orders of magnitude less then many common surgeries, like knee replacement.
liberals are going 180 against them and claiming everyone should be transitioning.
I have never seen a person arguing for that. I have seen people arguing, and passing laws, for the opposite though.
Mind if I ask where you heard liberals are jumping to that extreme? If you talk to random people on the street, I doubt you’d find more than maybe 1/1000 people expressing that view (and even that many would be surprisingly high).
The right wing generally doesn’t want people to gain new freedoms. Conservatism, fascism, etc. are hierarchical ideologies. They require people to exist in a chain of command, where lower status people are controlled by those with higher status. One of the biggest tricks used to keep people playing this game is fear. Exaggerated or completely false claims are made and spread amongst their base. “The left wants to take all of your guns!” “The left wants you to worship satan!” “The gays want to …” etc.
Generally, all the left wants is for everyone to get to live their life without arbitrary restrictions/judgement. If a news source is claiming that “the left” wants to control how someone lives their life, take it with a huge grain of salt. All too often, the bold claims coming from the right are distorted confessions. And if real people on the left are calling for a restriction, the intent is to apply it to everyone, themselves included, and there is a reasoned argument behind that conviction.
I’m all for no restrictions, this whole discussion is mute if we’re talking about adults, I give zero fucks what people do with their bodies. I’m strictly speaking about children.
many of us probably would have been convinced to do so
No one is being convinced of anything. People are being enabled to live as their true selves.
I also think it’s a tool we reach for much more often than is necessary.
There is no data to back this up, nor is there any reason to think it’s true. Trans people, even just considering the youngest generation, remain a very small percentage of the general population.
Giving gender affirming care to all people with gender or body dysphoria is like giving high dose Adderall to all people who have trouble paying attention in history class. It’s the nuclear option, and you’re using it on someone who may not even have adhd, or may not require such a strong intervention.
Any medical treatment should not be prescribed without a doctor’s due consideration. Gender affirming care, at any age, is no different. There is not a nuclear option available or used for minors expressing they want gender affirming care.
I know everyone hates this word, but starting with more conservative treatments first is the norm throughout healthcare for exactly this reason. We’ve made an exception for transgender people for political reasons, not scientific ones.
No such exception has been made, certainly not for trans kids.
So, that’s why the comment has some downvotes. And probably should have more. The comment isn’t a differing opinion; it’s factually incorrect.
True, I don’t know any trans people directly, but i certainly wonder if getting the transition is good for them.
If i can’t see people discuss both points of view because it’s “transphobic”, i’m forced to draw my own conclusions.
Just to be 100% clear, I am gay and have had my fair share of biggotry, so i know what it’s like. But the fact that i need this disclaimer is concerning to me.
I believe that overprotective censorship is responsible for a lot problems we have in 2023. People cannot learn if they cannot ask questions without being told they are evil.
That was pretty much my point. I’m 100% for bodily autonomy and freedom, but when it comes to children can we just take a minute to discuss things like adults without being labeled one thing or another.
People didn’t talk about wanting a sex change, but loads of us hated our bodies and wanted to wake up in different ones. Given the option and institutional support and reassurance that transitioning would help us, many of us probably would have been convinced to do so
This is actually one of my primary concerns regarding transgenderism in the modern day. I think it’s a tool in the toolbelt for when it’s necessary. I also think it’s a tool we reach for much more often than is necessary.
The comparable example I like to give is adhd. It isn’t binary. You don’t just have it or don’t have it. Some people have symptoms that need no intervention. Some people have symptoms but are misdiagnosed as adhd. Other people get by with therapy alone. Yet others find medication necessary to be functional.
Giving gender affirming care to all people with gender or body dysphoria is like giving high dose Adderall to all people who have trouble paying attention in history class. It’s the nuclear option, and you’re using it on someone who may not even have adhd, or may not require such a strong intervention.
I know everyone hates this word, but starting with more conservative treatments first is the norm throughout healthcare for exactly this reason. We’ve made an exception for transgender people for political reasons, not scientific ones.
You already have to go through tons of therapy and other conservative treatments before you get a sex change operation. That exists TODAY. Same with abortion.
No one can get it on a whim. Doctors require requisites to make sure it’s right for you, and it should stay up to the doctors’ discretion.
It’s nonsense saying it’s overused as if doctors and the patient don’t know what they’re about to go through.
Funny how no one ever considers this. It’s like they think some 12 year old can one day on a whim go to their doctor and ask for a sex change and they’ll start them on meds that day like hey I didn’t see my kid for the afternoon and now he’s got breasts what the hell!
I’m not the guy you responded to, but I have a similar concern…not with institutional gender affirming care, I don’t know enough about that to comment on it. My concern is with the social aspect, especially with kids. There’s no such thing as a feminine man anymore; now if you’re anything less than hypermasculine there’s pressure to announce yourself as trans. It’s silly, and it’s a fad, and I hope (and assume) our medical/therapy professionals are willing and able to see past it.
Wow, not my experience at all.
Today’s younger generation is way more accepting of differences than any previous generation I’ve seen, and I’m Gen X.
Today’s teenagers have friends who are gay, straight, trans, questioning, masculine, feminine, asexual, etc. and they’re totally cool with it. They’re like, you be you.
Gives me hope for the future.
There’s, like, 2 billion kids in the world, so I’m sure it depends on which kids you know. I’m not plugged into the broader cultural scene for kids nowadays, and I don’t have any of my own, so this is all from anecdoes from my nieces/nephews/friends’ kids/random teenagers on reddit
All of which to say, what I’ve heard about the peer pressure may not be the norm. I hope it’s not.
In other words, you didn’t actually do any real research—you made a bunch of assumptions based on what someone you know said and some propaganda you heard floating around. And it is very clear that is the case.
If you have not investigated the matter then you should not speak because whatever you have to say of it will be nothing more than babble. Maybe let us transgender folk speak to our experience. There’s plenty of feminine men out there. There’s a whole aesthetics for that particular flavor of queer, most most famously femboy. There are also demi-sexualities where someone not quite one or the other such as demiboys.
Maybe sit down and take the time to learn about things instead of having a knee-jerk opinion on the matter. There’s a lot to parse and if you think it is too much, that’s on you. For us, we know what we are and most of us have known for most of our lives. I didn’t transition until I was 35, but I knew what I was when I 4 or 5. I just didn’t have any way of expressing it and understood if I did I would be either in trouble or in danger. Contrary to popular opinion, children can and do pick up on those subtexts. No one transitions out of peer pressure—if anything the pressure is on us to not transition. That’s true regardless of age and the fact you don’t understand this shows you haven’t done any research.
What you’ve said doesn’t really seem to me to be true in the slightest. There are many, many role models of feminine men around (F1nnst3r for a very obvious example), and the nuances of gender expression allow this so much more than in the past. We have clear conceptual differences between feminine men, non binary people, and trans women, and people are more than allowed to fit into any category they like (or build their own!).
This isn’t the divide between the Catholic and Protestant church.
Socially, strict gender roles are losing relevance. A well groomed man with long hair is just that. Nobody thinks it means he wants to be a woman unless they harbor the misogynistic opinion that women are defined by long hair.
Hi, do you have a workshop to just make up random shit and convince yourself it’s real? Could be fun for parties
Or, best not to project your insecurities onto others who don’t have them
Hello,
LOL
Sincerely,
Everyone.
Yes, we’re all laughing at you
WTF are you talking about?
Hot take: there was never any such thing as feminine men. AMAB enbies always secretly wish they were women, but don’t believe they can be.
Q: what’s the difference between a femboy and a trans woman?
A: about 2 years
Edit: they hated her because she told them the truth 😌
Maybe you should just support people’s gender identity without telling them what they should feel.
That’s the zoomiest of zoomer takes rofl
I’m a wise elder who has seen the femboy cope fail many times now.
“bisexuals are just gay men who haven’t realized it” vibes
4chan brainwormed
Gender affirmative care isn’t even specific to transition care. It’s any surgery that is intended to make the recipient feel more like their gender e.g. breast implants, cosmetic chest surgery to fix concave chest.
How about, if people want a sex change operation, you let them have it? Why have a discussion at all?
If people want to get a tattoo all over their face, society lets them, no therapy necessary. If people want to mutilate their nipples and genitals with piercings, no therapy necessary.
Just, let people be themselves, get out of their way.
We’ve made an exception for transgender people because withholding care leads directly to worse, catastrophically worse, life outcomes. We don’t start with conservative options when treating severe PCOS or similar disfiguring conditions. That’s a bad faith argument. The younger you transition, the better your chance of living a normal life. The more gatekeeping there is, the more lives you ruin, forever. Gatekeeping gender affirming care leads directly to a lifetime of ostracization and eventual suicide.
deleted by creator
Do you have any evidence for this? Because the vast majority of people who transition stick with it, and the vast majority of people who don’t go back because of social pressures. here is an article about how many people are happy with the care they receive, I really think you should read it.
Yes, you either have it or you don’t. You either have diagnosable, actual adhd or you don’t. Sure, it can be worse for some people. But to be diagnosed, it has to be causing you problems in your life. Mental illnesses aren’t something that everyone has to some extent.
Yes, people cope with their issues in different ways. Same for trans people. Most don’t get top or bottom surgery, for example.
I hate the word conservative for reasons completely unrelated to how you use it here, I’m not sure why you’d mention it. And there’s not an exception for trans heathcare, why would you think that?
deleted by creator
I very much disagree. Many mental illnesses are defined as “the same trait a mentally healthy person has, just too much or too little, to the point where it’s causing them distress and interfering with their lives”.
Nearly everything is a spectrum. Even the few things that have quantifiable biological markers are usually present in neurotypical people as well, just at a more “normal” level.
Right. (some) Mental illnesses are when that trait is so severe it causes problems for the person. That trait is something everyone has, but not the mental illness. Mental illness is specifically when that trait is severe. It would be saying everyone has a severe issue to some extent, even if it’s not severe for them. It just doesn’t make sense, and to me weakens what mental illness actually is. If people use adhd to just mean attention issues, even ones so minor they don’t cause a person problems, it undermines the word.
Edit: didn’t mean to delete the parent comment, I accidentally posted twice. It was the same as above in the thread.
Someone has reported this as “transphobic” so I just want to be clear that every situation is different and people are entitled to express their concerns. There are people who are living their best life afterwards and people that do not get what they expect out of transitioning. It is complex and not something I’m going to sit here and pretend I even understand 100%. I’m just the mod, not an expert. That being said, I’m not just going to censor anyone on here for a mild skepticism. That is your teachable moment if you have something to say. Some people really never never encounter these issues first hand. That doesn’t mean they’re coming from a place of hate, just confusion, ignorance, etc. Let us be wary not to confuse the two paths and let us remember love leads everyone back regardless of the path. And that’s all I’ve got to say about that. :)
The admins will also remove that comment if it breaks lemmy.worlds instance rules
https://mastodon.world/about
I’m going to leave that to their discretion without argument. This is a subject matter I am not heavily familiar with. I really don’t even understand some of these comments myself.
It’s silly that this reasonable comment is being mass downvoted. Things that permanently change people should be done carefully and with a lot of safety checks. We can all agree on that.
For me all of this gets more important the younger the kid is.
I have no bone in this fight, but people shouting like we have all of this 100% figured out is simply wrong.
In fact what I’m seeing is, conservatives are anti trans, which is 100% wrong, so liberals are going 180 against them and claiming everyone should be transitioning.
I was listening to a discussion where a gay man was saying that when he was young, he might have been pushed to transition because he was effeminate, when really he was just gay and is now a happy gay man.
Anyway, I wish people would just come off the extremes and we bring in nuance and humility. Admitting that there is a lot about the human body and mind that we simply don’t understand yet.
It’s being downvoted because it’s both a false equivalency and a strawman. I have never heard of anyone arguing that anyone with a hint of dysphoria should be immediately pushed to fully transition, except in extremely unreliable “news” sources with an anti-trans agenda.
The current standard of care in medicine, especially for children, is already quite cautious. You can’t just show up at the doctor tomorrow and go under the knife the day after. It’s more likely to be too difficult, as you have to be fortunate enough to find a supportive medical team within traveling distance.
Liberals arent going 180 and saying everyone should transition.
Liberals are saying it’s none of your business and let people make their own life choices. If they want to transition, then let them. If they don’t, let them. If they change their mind later, let them.
Everyone has to learn their are consequences to their choices and if they transition before they are sure, it’s their choice and their consequences to deal with.
Everyone does, and they are being done with lots of checks. The above comment isn’t saying that though. They’re claiming that those checks aren’t being done, which is just not true. The rate people regret gender reassignment surgery is orders of magnitude less then many common surgeries, like knee replacement.
I have never seen a person arguing for that. I have seen people arguing, and passing laws, for the opposite though.
Mind if I ask where you heard liberals are jumping to that extreme? If you talk to random people on the street, I doubt you’d find more than maybe 1/1000 people expressing that view (and even that many would be surprisingly high).
The right wing generally doesn’t want people to gain new freedoms. Conservatism, fascism, etc. are hierarchical ideologies. They require people to exist in a chain of command, where lower status people are controlled by those with higher status. One of the biggest tricks used to keep people playing this game is fear. Exaggerated or completely false claims are made and spread amongst their base. “The left wants to take all of your guns!” “The left wants you to worship satan!” “The gays want to …” etc.
Generally, all the left wants is for everyone to get to live their life without arbitrary restrictions/judgement. If a news source is claiming that “the left” wants to control how someone lives their life, take it with a huge grain of salt. All too often, the bold claims coming from the right are distorted confessions. And if real people on the left are calling for a restriction, the intent is to apply it to everyone, themselves included, and there is a reasoned argument behind that conviction.
I’m all for no restrictions, this whole discussion is mute if we’re talking about adults, I give zero fucks what people do with their bodies. I’m strictly speaking about children.
No one is being convinced of anything. People are being enabled to live as their true selves.
There is no data to back this up, nor is there any reason to think it’s true. Trans people, even just considering the youngest generation, remain a very small percentage of the general population.
Any medical treatment should not be prescribed without a doctor’s due consideration. Gender affirming care, at any age, is no different. There is not a nuclear option available or used for minors expressing they want gender affirming care.
No such exception has been made, certainly not for trans kids.
So, that’s why the comment has some downvotes. And probably should have more. The comment isn’t a differing opinion; it’s factually incorrect.
True, I don’t know any trans people directly, but i certainly wonder if getting the transition is good for them. If i can’t see people discuss both points of view because it’s “transphobic”, i’m forced to draw my own conclusions.
Just to be 100% clear, I am gay and have had my fair share of biggotry, so i know what it’s like. But the fact that i need this disclaimer is concerning to me. I believe that overprotective censorship is responsible for a lot problems we have in 2023. People cannot learn if they cannot ask questions without being told they are evil.
That was pretty much my point. I’m 100% for bodily autonomy and freedom, but when it comes to children can we just take a minute to discuss things like adults without being labeled one thing or another.