Secret Service agents protecting President Joe Biden’s granddaughter have opened fire after three people tried to break into an unmarked Secret Service vehicle in Washington.
Good. If you try to break into someone else’s shit, you should reasonably expect to get shot at.
It is worrying to me that the supposedly highest trained security guards in the world couldn’t actually hit their target. I would expect better in terms of both accuracy and fire discipline.
It is also worrying that if a citizen like you or me tried to defend ourselves and our property in the same way in much of these nation including DC, we would go to jail. I think we deserve the same rights as ‘important people’.
Imagine living in a country where people are so obsessed with guns that everybody has guns and everyone is a potential threat or one insult away from doing a mass shooting. It’s gotten so bad that America has become a parody of Grand Theft Auto, where you can actually feel safer as a character in a video game that glorifies violence and crime.
Your nation has gone beyond ape shit.
There isn’t another developed nation in the world where gun violence is as big a problem as in America.
Age-adjusted firearm homicide rates in the US are 33 times greater than in Australia and 77 times greater than in Germany. Gun violence accounts for over 8% of deaths in the US among those under age 20.
Gun violence accounts for over 8% of deaths in the US among those under age 20.
Break out the ‘firearm deaths of under 20yos’ stat by income, or average income of residential area where they live. You’ll see a STRONG correlation. That’s because an awful lot of our gun crime is by violent drug gangs in inner city areas.
That link has a great breakdown though of firearm homicide rate by state. I’ll point out there’s little or no correlation between gun control policy and firearm homicide rate there. Washington, DC and Maryland have some of the strictest gun control in the country, and the most firearm homicides. Vermont, New Hampshire, and Utah have among the least gun control and highest gun ownership rate, but among the lowest firearm homicide rate. Then there are states that have the expected effect- Hawaii (very anti-gun) with low gun death rate, Alaska (lots of guns) with high gun death rate.
But what that all says is that there’s not a causation between gun ownership or gun policy and gun homicide rate. I suspect you’d find a better correlation with poverty than with gun ownership.
I addressed the which state is which, I addressed the under-20s dying of gun homicide. If I didn’t address them enough please feel free to ask for detail on whatever part of it you wish to focus on.
As for the other key point (US has more gun homicide than Germany or AU)- that one’s more complicated.
There’s an obvious answer that there’s more guns in USA, thus more gun homicide- much the same as you get more drownings in Miami (where everyone’s at the beach) than Kansas (where there’s no water).
However I think focusing on homicide rate by weapon is of limited use. I think overall homicide rate is more important-- if in one place the homicide rate is 1/10million and most of them are stabbings and in another place the homicide rate is 1/10million and most of them are shootings, neither one is safer than the other.
I suspect USA has higher overall homicide rate than either of those two places. But I think the root causes for that are the ‘hard problems’ we ignore- poverty, drugs, gangs, hopelessness, etc. DE and AU have decent modern health care systems and actually take care of their population. Mental health care is available and affordable. Strong social safety net keeps people out of extreme poverty. Thus- less drug use, less gangs, and of course less violence from the gangs.
I’m sure there’s some part of that difference that comes from side effects of our gun policies, so don’t think I’m being obtuse. Just that I don’t think it’s anywhere near the direct causation you seem to be claiming.
Are you from the US? I’m assuming not. I mean no offense by this.
What most people from other places don’t recognize is that the US is in effect 50 different countries. Each state has their own regulations, that in some cases are wildly different from the next.
That applies to gun laws also.
So it’s most incorrect to say ‘we tried nothing and it didn’t work’, when in reality we’ve tried 50 different things. That is the beauty of your link, if you look at the state by state data. There’s 50 different visions of what gun policy should be, and 50 different outcomes. And this really does run the gamut. There are a few national-level laws, for example every gun store purchase must have a background check, and some case law that has defined what the government can and can’t do to regulate, but for the most part it’s up to each state to write their own policy.
In DC for example, you had a scheme that would fit in well anywhere in Europe- you need training and licensing to even get a permit to buy a gun, each gun has to be registered and test-fired before it can be delivered to the buyer. From beginning to end the process of buying a gun (which you couldn’t even carry) took months and a dozen visits to various government agencies. I’ve heard it’s since gotten a bit less strict, but it was like that for a LONG time.
DC has the highest rate of gun violence in the nation and has for a very long time.
Hawaii has gun control that’s similarly strict, and has among the lowest gun homicide rate in the nation.
In Vermont for example you have what everyone accuses the entire USA of having- anyone can buy as many guns as they want with no training or licensing, and you can carry your gun loaded without a permit or proof of training. This is sometimes called ‘Constitutional Carry’ (the Constitution is your carry permit). Buying a gun is easy, other than the Federally-mandated background check, you can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun in less than an hour.
Vermont has among the highest gun ownership rate, but among the lowest gun homicide rate.
Alaska is similar to Vermont (Constitutional Carry, high gun ownership rate) but among the highest gun homicide rate.
What those 4 states should tell you, is that gun policy or gun ownership rate are not necessarily drivers of gun homicide rate. Something else is going on that drives gun homicide rate.
So’s the E.U. they got it to work. The excuses Americans will make for allowing themselves to ignore the dead kid problem is astounding. And you’re right, there is more that drives homicide rate, like lack of social services, 10% of your population living without food security on an annual basis, 54% of your adult population reading below a 6th grade literacy level, there’s a lot of big problems and you aren’t fixing any of them.
Imagine living in a country where people are so obsessed with guns that everybody has guns and everyone is a potential threat or one insult away from doing a mass shooting.
I don’t know what nation you’re from but America is nothing at all like this. Gun owners aren’t like this.
People who don’t understand American gun culture expect it’s like GTA- everybody’s strapped, fender-benders at traffic lights turn into firefights, don’t dare tell anyone anything negative because they’ll shoot you if they don’t like what you say. This isn’t at all the case though. Not even close.
Gun owners who carry guns look at it like a seat belt or fire extinguisher-- you hope to god you never need it, but if ever you do, having it might save your life. There is no action movie attitude of ‘who do I shoot today?’. Gun owners recognize how serious a responsibility it is, and petty arguments rarely involve weapons fire, even in situations where everyone involved is armed.
We have a big problem with gun violence- but the majority of it is caused by our bigger problem of poverty and hopelessness in many areas. People turn to drugs, that are supplied by violent gangs who are all armed with illegal guns. Those guys commit the lion’s share of our gun homicide.
Problem is, fixing it is a slow and expensive generational process. You need better schools, mental health care, child care, reproductive care, and real jobs for people to aspire to (not just flipping burgers). This costs billions.
If you want to criticize us for something- criticize us for spending billions/trillions on military (we have more military force than the next 10 nations combined, including all our major enemies) when our budgets are fucked and we can’t even seem to take care of our own citizens. THAT is worthy of your criticism (and mine).
I’m not aware of another developed nation where getting cancer means you’ve got a good chance of going bankrupt. THAT ISN’T NORMAL and we should be fixing that shit.
What you say in this comment seems inconsistent with what you said in the previous one, namely that if you try to break into someone’s stuff (e.g. an unoccupied parked car in this case) you should expect to be shot at. Going straight to deadly force to protect one’s property is the bit people (at least, many non-Americans) think is not normal.
I’ve noticed a significant correlation between people who reject all contemplation of violence as ethical behavior, and those who refuse to engage in debate with those holding differing beliefs about ethics.
Exactly right. If the article says “home owner shoots armed robber attempting to kidnap children” you’d have people losing their minds about guns and violence. Also people would be upset that the person owned a home…
Yeah I’ve noticed :-( Lemmy overall seems much less tolerant of gun ownership or use of force than Reddit. Even when it is obviously justified.
The headline could be, “Good Samaritan opens fire to defend disabled orphan POC child and her blind 3-legged rescue kitten from white supremacist pedophile rape gang” and half the comments would be how the stupid hick Republican ammosexual who wants more school shootings is so worthless he needs to carry around a lethal penis extender.
But throw in a little criticism of government or police… Heh
Because a world where people are firing guns at each other all the time is INSANE, regardless of the context. Most of the developed world has figured this out.
If you look at the data, the vast majority of people who are ‘firing guns at each other all the time’ are gang members in low-income inner cities.
To distill a bunch of stats, half the people of the US own guns, and they own enough guns to arm the other half and have plenty left over.
Per FBI, there’s about 10k-15k firearm homicides per year. That means on average an American has a 0.005% chance of being killed by a gun in any given year.
If we truly were ‘firing guns at each other all the time’ that number would be WAY WAY WAY WAY higher.
Couldn’t agree more. Biden gets to protect his family with guns. I think you and me should have that right also.
If I take a shot without being sure I’m gonna hit a criminal, I’m in big trouble. But if a cop/guard does the same, oh well.
Good. If you try to break into someone else’s shit, you should reasonably expect to get shot at.
It is worrying to me that the supposedly highest trained security guards in the world couldn’t actually hit their target. I would expect better in terms of both accuracy and fire discipline.
It is also worrying that if a citizen like you or me tried to defend ourselves and our property in the same way in much of these nation including DC, we would go to jail. I think we deserve the same rights as ‘important people’.
Imagine living in a country where people are so obsessed with guns that everybody has guns and everyone is a potential threat or one insult away from doing a mass shooting. It’s gotten so bad that America has become a parody of Grand Theft Auto, where you can actually feel safer as a character in a video game that glorifies violence and crime.
Your nation has gone beyond ape shit.
There isn’t another developed nation in the world where gun violence is as big a problem as in America.
This ISN’T NORMAL.
Age-adjusted firearm homicide rates in the US are 33 times greater than in Australia and 77 times greater than in Germany. Gun violence accounts for over 8% of deaths in the US among those under age 20.
https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier
Break out the ‘firearm deaths of under 20yos’ stat by income, or average income of residential area where they live. You’ll see a STRONG correlation. That’s because an awful lot of our gun crime is by violent drug gangs in inner city areas.
That link has a great breakdown though of firearm homicide rate by state. I’ll point out there’s little or no correlation between gun control policy and firearm homicide rate there. Washington, DC and Maryland have some of the strictest gun control in the country, and the most firearm homicides. Vermont, New Hampshire, and Utah have among the least gun control and highest gun ownership rate, but among the lowest firearm homicide rate. Then there are states that have the expected effect- Hawaii (very anti-gun) with low gun death rate, Alaska (lots of guns) with high gun death rate.
But what that all says is that there’s not a causation between gun ownership or gun policy and gun homicide rate. I suspect you’d find a better correlation with poverty than with gun ownership.
What about the other two more important statistics? Stop killing kids with your emotional support weapons you fucking cowards.
the ‘key statistics’ at the top–
I addressed the which state is which, I addressed the under-20s dying of gun homicide. If I didn’t address them enough please feel free to ask for detail on whatever part of it you wish to focus on.
As for the other key point (US has more gun homicide than Germany or AU)- that one’s more complicated.
There’s an obvious answer that there’s more guns in USA, thus more gun homicide- much the same as you get more drownings in Miami (where everyone’s at the beach) than Kansas (where there’s no water).
However I think focusing on homicide rate by weapon is of limited use. I think overall homicide rate is more important-- if in one place the homicide rate is 1/10million and most of them are stabbings and in another place the homicide rate is 1/10million and most of them are shootings, neither one is safer than the other.
I suspect USA has higher overall homicide rate than either of those two places. But I think the root causes for that are the ‘hard problems’ we ignore- poverty, drugs, gangs, hopelessness, etc. DE and AU have decent modern health care systems and actually take care of their population. Mental health care is available and affordable. Strong social safety net keeps people out of extreme poverty. Thus- less drug use, less gangs, and of course less violence from the gangs.
I’m sure there’s some part of that difference that comes from side effects of our gun policies, so don’t think I’m being obtuse. Just that I don’t think it’s anywhere near the direct causation you seem to be claiming.
It doesn’t matter what you think when there’s evidence of what works.
“We’ve tried nothing, and it hasn’t worked!” Says only country where this happens regularly.
Are you from the US? I’m assuming not. I mean no offense by this.
What most people from other places don’t recognize is that the US is in effect 50 different countries. Each state has their own regulations, that in some cases are wildly different from the next.
That applies to gun laws also.
So it’s most incorrect to say ‘we tried nothing and it didn’t work’, when in reality we’ve tried 50 different things. That is the beauty of your link, if you look at the state by state data. There’s 50 different visions of what gun policy should be, and 50 different outcomes. And this really does run the gamut. There are a few national-level laws, for example every gun store purchase must have a background check, and some case law that has defined what the government can and can’t do to regulate, but for the most part it’s up to each state to write their own policy.
In DC for example, you had a scheme that would fit in well anywhere in Europe- you need training and licensing to even get a permit to buy a gun, each gun has to be registered and test-fired before it can be delivered to the buyer. From beginning to end the process of buying a gun (which you couldn’t even carry) took months and a dozen visits to various government agencies. I’ve heard it’s since gotten a bit less strict, but it was like that for a LONG time.
DC has the highest rate of gun violence in the nation and has for a very long time.
Hawaii has gun control that’s similarly strict, and has among the lowest gun homicide rate in the nation.
In Vermont for example you have what everyone accuses the entire USA of having- anyone can buy as many guns as they want with no training or licensing, and you can carry your gun loaded without a permit or proof of training. This is sometimes called ‘Constitutional Carry’ (the Constitution is your carry permit). Buying a gun is easy, other than the Federally-mandated background check, you can walk into a gun store and walk out with a gun in less than an hour.
Vermont has among the highest gun ownership rate, but among the lowest gun homicide rate.
Alaska is similar to Vermont (Constitutional Carry, high gun ownership rate) but among the highest gun homicide rate.
What those 4 states should tell you, is that gun policy or gun ownership rate are not necessarily drivers of gun homicide rate. Something else is going on that drives gun homicide rate.
So’s the E.U. they got it to work. The excuses Americans will make for allowing themselves to ignore the dead kid problem is astounding. And you’re right, there is more that drives homicide rate, like lack of social services, 10% of your population living without food security on an annual basis, 54% of your adult population reading below a 6th grade literacy level, there’s a lot of big problems and you aren’t fixing any of them.
I don’t know what nation you’re from but America is nothing at all like this. Gun owners aren’t like this.
People who don’t understand American gun culture expect it’s like GTA- everybody’s strapped, fender-benders at traffic lights turn into firefights, don’t dare tell anyone anything negative because they’ll shoot you if they don’t like what you say. This isn’t at all the case though. Not even close.
Gun owners who carry guns look at it like a seat belt or fire extinguisher-- you hope to god you never need it, but if ever you do, having it might save your life. There is no action movie attitude of ‘who do I shoot today?’. Gun owners recognize how serious a responsibility it is, and petty arguments rarely involve weapons fire, even in situations where everyone involved is armed.
We have a big problem with gun violence- but the majority of it is caused by our bigger problem of poverty and hopelessness in many areas. People turn to drugs, that are supplied by violent gangs who are all armed with illegal guns. Those guys commit the lion’s share of our gun homicide.
Problem is, fixing it is a slow and expensive generational process. You need better schools, mental health care, child care, reproductive care, and real jobs for people to aspire to (not just flipping burgers). This costs billions.
If you want to criticize us for something- criticize us for spending billions/trillions on military (we have more military force than the next 10 nations combined, including all our major enemies) when our budgets are fucked and we can’t even seem to take care of our own citizens. THAT is worthy of your criticism (and mine).
I’m not aware of another developed nation where getting cancer means you’ve got a good chance of going bankrupt. THAT ISN’T NORMAL and we should be fixing that shit.
What you say in this comment seems inconsistent with what you said in the previous one, namely that if you try to break into someone’s stuff (e.g. an unoccupied parked car in this case) you should expect to be shot at. Going straight to deadly force to protect one’s property is the bit people (at least, many non-Americans) think is not normal.
In many other contexts this would be downvoted to oblivion on Lemmy.
In many other contexts, this is fucking insane.
Why? Serious question. I’m getting down votes, if you disagree, then please engage and tell me why?
I’ve noticed a significant correlation between people who reject all contemplation of violence as ethical behavior, and those who refuse to engage in debate with those holding differing beliefs about ethics.
Well said.
In the words of Aristotle, “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.”
Lot of not very educated minds in the world these days :(
And robbing someone’s car isn’t insane?
Exactly right. If the article says “home owner shoots armed robber attempting to kidnap children” you’d have people losing their minds about guns and violence. Also people would be upset that the person owned a home…
Who has ever been upset at people owning their own home?
I think it was a joke, made me laugh anyway.
Communists?
deleted by creator
Yeah I’ve noticed :-( Lemmy overall seems much less tolerant of gun ownership or use of force than Reddit. Even when it is obviously justified.
The headline could be, “Good Samaritan opens fire to defend disabled orphan POC child and her blind 3-legged rescue kitten from white supremacist pedophile rape gang” and half the comments would be how the stupid hick Republican ammosexual who wants more school shootings is so worthless he needs to carry around a lethal penis extender.
But throw in a little criticism of government or police… Heh
Because a world where people are firing guns at each other all the time is INSANE, regardless of the context. Most of the developed world has figured this out.
If you look at the data, the vast majority of people who are ‘firing guns at each other all the time’ are gang members in low-income inner cities.
To distill a bunch of stats, half the people of the US own guns, and they own enough guns to arm the other half and have plenty left over.
Per FBI, there’s about 10k-15k firearm homicides per year. That means on average an American has a 0.005% chance of being killed by a gun in any given year.
If we truly were ‘firing guns at each other all the time’ that number would be WAY WAY WAY WAY higher.
The whole point of equality is that we’re all supposed to have the same rights and responsibilities.
Couldn’t agree more. Biden gets to protect his family with guns. I think you and me should have that right also.
If I take a shot without being sure I’m gonna hit a criminal, I’m in big trouble. But if a cop/guard does the same, oh well.
I don’t like double standards.