- cross-posted to:
- health@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- health@lemmy.world
Dr. John Wust does not come off as a labor agitator. A longtime obstetrician-gynecologist from Louisiana with a penchant for bow ties, Dr. Wust spent the first 15 years of his career as a partner in a small business — that is, running his own practice with colleagues.
Long after he took a position at Allina Health, a large nonprofit health care system based in Minnesota, in 2009, he did not see himself as the kind of employee who might benefit from collective bargaining.
But that changed in the months leading up to March, when his group of more than 100 doctors at an Allina hospital near Minneapolis voted to unionize. Dr. Wust, who has spoken with colleagues about the potential benefits of a union, said doctors were at a loss on how to ease their unsustainable workload because they had less input at the hospital than ever before.
“The way the system is going, I didn’t see any other solution legally available to us,” Dr. Wust said.
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Absolutely. Unionize. Doctors should unionize. Accountants should unionize. Graphic designers should unionize. Everyone should unionize except the executives that have to bargain with the unions.
How people can’t understand that unions do a lot of good is beyond me
Decades of Republican propaganda.
LOL @ the downvotes to this one
I’m guessing at least one of them is some desperately sad person who regularly goes through my comment history and downvotes every post regardless of what I say. I could say “Hitler was evil” and they would downvote it. It’s kind of amusing.
I had that happened to me a few weeks ago, but they gave up after a week or so.
I think it’s so funny. Karma didn’t matter on Reddit much and it doesn’t matter at all here. Why do they care enough to make that sort of effort?
Them:
“It’s easier to fool a man than to convince him he’d been fooled.”
Crazy how accurate Mark Twain was about the United States even way back then.
Or bad experiences with a union. I’ve personally seen Unions do good things, I’ve seen them have bad effects, and I’ve seen them cause frankly ridiculous delays with their rules and lack of coordination with other unions. I think theoretically Unions are a great idea, but we’ve all seen things like Police Unions make it impossible to get rid of bad cops, and otherwise protect people who I believe no normal person would say should keep their job.
Other then police unions, what other unions have you seen create the problems you’ve listed?
Adding to that, police unions aren’t actually unions in the traditional sense.
They support the status quo instead of supporting changes in business.
They couldn’t give a shit about equality (and arguably act against it on multiple fronts).
They stand against worker’s rights in support of gov’ts, big oil, etc.
They use collective bargaining to reduce accountability and transparency of members.
And they murder dozens/hundreds of people and get away it with consistently.
My cousin is an electrician. His boss and his union rep pretty regularly attack his wife for being a trans woman and his options are to sit there and smile or to be fired and never get work again. The (whatever the term is for) apprenticeship system is pretty much built around systemic racism and nepotism and there are a LOT of sexual abuse “scandals” that never see the light of day.
A union, by definition, is about giving power to the people. But if the people are shitbags too, it doesn’t change a lot. Its the exact same problem that companies like Activision-Blizzard had where it is a culture of abuse where the c-suite and the middle managers and even the co-workers are doing “cube crawls” and the like. You can give more bargaining power to the workers but that doesn’t help when the workers themselves are abusive.
I am generally pro union but they do not solve anywhere near as many problems as The Internet likes to pretend they do. And I can very much see a case where a lot of the leadership in the medical community have the “Everyone needs to go through a crucible” mentality. Hell, my aunt is a doctor and has even bragged about how many days straight she could work when she was in her residency and so forth.
Currently, union power is at low ebb. Yes, unions can be and have been terrible engines of corruption when their power grows. I don’t know what the answer is, but I do know people who control millions of dollars are better than those who control billions, if only by degree. We need to tackle wealth disparity.
I am not convinced that there is a significant difference in shitty behavior between millionaires and billionaires. The consequences ship has already long since sailed by the time you are at a couple million. But tell that to the people being sexually harassed and assaulted by their managers and sometimes even union reps. Tell them that they don’t matter right now and what matters is “wealth inequality”.
Hell, you might as well tell them that you are going to give their abusers even more power since the union leadership generally comes from the “popular” low level managers and workers.
Like I said, I think unions are, generally, a net good. But it aggravates me to no end when people ignore the problems they can and can’t solve.
Social Stockholm Syndrome, venerating their suffering as if ones capacity to suffer is something that should be respected and strengthened like a muscle.
…all while disregarding the dystopic culture that fostered the “growth”.
I got in an argument with a pair of my brothers over student loan relief. All 3 of us have paid our student loans back the same way, by living an austere life with 2 jobs for at least a decade. My older brother, the most conservative “progress is a slow march” brother, was absolutely against it. He paid his off, others can too, or at least he should get his money back then, if everyone’s just being let off the hook. I disagreed with him, as I usually do but I approach problems different than he does. He looks at the immediate, how it affects him and figures what’s fair - and there’s nothing wrong with that per se.
I look at the solution and try to identify the markers, or steps, necessary to get there. Then I weigh the steps against the desired solution to determine what is viable. I work backwards from the solution.
My younger brother and I share the same mind on student loans; forgive them, every outstanding balance and end the paygating of knowledge in general - because those holding the keys to the gates didn’t come up with the contents theyre guarding, they themselves are stewards, not owners.
I don’t care that I was able to pay off my loans, it’s more important that we move past the paygating - which is really power projection - than any benefit I myself might be able to gain.
Moving ahead, either personally or socially will at times require looking ahead more than looking at now or the path preceding. I think this kind of insight is crucial to any leadership, large or small, union or otherwise.
I’m if the opinion that if we must make a choice to act together in a group, then let’s figure out and establish our best practices, ensure the appropriate smart people are involved and do whatever with the soft (not-monetized) values we want fostered, ie with compassion, patience, understanding, offering respect and integrity, not demanding obedience before giving them. A society that doesn’t work from those values will lose those values. And that’s pervasive, from your HOA meetings to town hall, from loading dock smoke breaks to union halls. All the way to fancy granite buildings.
Teachers
Sauce: Waiting for Superman documentary
So the thing that stands out to me is I had a summer job for 2 weeks in a grocery store. We all had to join the union (I forget what union it was). I had to pay union dues on a temporary minimum wage job. The great union actually caused me to be paid less than minimum wage. I don’t know what they were bargaining for, but they suck if their negotiations leads to less pay than just working literally anywhere else without a union. I left after the 2 weeks because I got a non-union job paying 1.50 more an hour back in the early aughts.
My dad always told me stories about the union construction or maintenance people where he worked. Carpenters would come in, look at the storage area for raw materials and walk out saying, we can’t get to the wood because the electricians put in wire spools in front of it when filling the room, and we can’t touch the wire spool, we can’t move it, we can’t set up a ladder and climb over it. So they’d get paid for a day for sitting there, till the electricians came and moved the spools. And vice versa.
In my current job the facilities people are all union, which is fine, but it takes them forever to get to stuff, and because we have some areas that are scientific in nature and have radiation in them, they won’t enter. We get some sort of pass to have non-union people who can do the work and will enter the areas and they show up much faster and do the job. The Union regularly complains about this until they’re reminded that they refuse to enter the areas, or commit to the SLA that is required to run the facility.
I think all of this is bad for unions. I would want unions to be the best people and the most willing to do a good job within treating the employees like humans. But that’s too often not what happens. The best things I’ve ever seen unions do is basically show up like a psudo lawyer or pay for a lawyer when my dad or mom (both were in a union) were being unfairly fired (both were allowed to retire with full benefits instead, but still didn’t get to keep their jobs).
I’m not saying I don’t think unions can be good - they got us the current work week. I’m saying they’re earning some of their reputation, which lets the propaganda from the right wing work much better.
Police unions aren’t helping
At my job years ago they had a required training that was watching a video that was essentially anti union propaganda.
They had two managers discussing the need for a new supervisor position opening up, and discussing two qualified candidates. Then a third guy (poorly dressed and obnoxious personality) comes in and says they have to promote this other guy, due to union rules. The managers exclaim that guy barely ever comes to work and when he does has very poor performance, but Obnoxious Union Guy insists their hands are tied and they must promote him.
End Scene.
Now, good employee forced to watch this video, can’t you see how unions are bad?? And YOU have to pay a fee to essentially destroy the company so we go under and you have to get a new job! Be a good little employee and keep working hard and forget the word Union exists.
How does that work for smaller businesses? Legit asking.
I’m pro-union, but with a whopping…7 employees on good day, I’m struggling to see how bringing in a union would help without having massive overhead cost due to the lack of quantity being paid in.
My company already pays as much as it can back to the employees (I am the lowest paid employee, as the owner, at what amounts to a $1 salary), we pay as much as we can afford towards health benefits, we reimburse a portion of home internet and cell, and we do a lot that results in free meals and other gifts for employees.
That said, I wouldn’t be opposed to a union if it improved morale, but I am just struggling to understand where they would add the best value for the cost. I don’t want my employees to suffer, but frankly if union dues cost like…I don’t know, $3500/mo, I’d much rather just split that money across the employees to pocket on their own.
edit: To the people down voting, I would legitimately love to hear why. And am looking for feedback on how you think I should fix the situation.
With a smaller business yeah you are right as long as the business is paying what it can then no a union is probably not a good idea. As long as the owners are willing to up the pay as far as they reasonably can then the union dues just take from the employee. But I was talking about in general unions are good.
Every penny goes to the employees, I pay myself $1 and nothing more, no distributions, no bonuses, no private stock, nothing. During peak COVID I had to pay wages and benefits out of pocket since we were closed.
At the end of the day I just do the bookkeeping and permits/license paperwork and crap. I’m not doing any of the actual work. So I shouldn’t really be paid.
Actually, the executives should probably also unionise, it will help normalise negotiations and spread best practices that lead to a better work environment for all.
Executives are already part of a union. Boards approve the executive hiring of a company, but those boards are made up of executives from other companies. And those companies have boards that include executives from other companies. Hiring and firing of executives are handled by a collective of executives across many companies. It’s a union that protects itself.
Would be kind of interesting to see what kind of negotiations would arise from having labor, management, and executives all represented by unions!
edited to add missing word
If executive unions could enforced a max amount of hours worked for executives and other similar quality of life requirements. Maybe there would be fewer sociopaths and more humans in executive positions.
Check out the Nordics, that’s how they do it over there.
If they can stop looking out for themselves first!
Management jobs are rarely union, since they’re the ones making the rules.
Correct, but they would often benefit from having collective bargaining against the board of directors or other owners.
And organising themselves as a union would also show them that unions aren’t evil and shift focus from exploitation to cooperation. Besides, many unions would have much use of being able to speak for the whole industry in matters of legislation, either as lobby or expert.
I don’t know if that will achieve what you want it to. Remember, the AMPTP is a union and it was able to get concessions from the WGA and SAG-AFTRA which are not good for the workers.
Warms my heart to see everyone from across different industries unionizing.
Remember, unions and strikes work, don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
Physician here.
Medicine is one of the few professions in which capital is tied to labor (at least of the licensed independent clinicians). Hospitals, clinics, etc., can’t run any test, provide any service, perform any surgery, without a physician (or other licenses clinicians) order.Health systems rely on their physicians to drive clinical practice. Physicians are the experts after all. It’s a mutually beneficial relationship, but at its core, it is a partnership. This partnership certainly has it’s ups and downs. But this is what happens when the health system forgets that it is a partnership.
Buddy, that’s every job where someone earns a paycheck.
If someone pays you a paycheck, you are labor. If you depend on that paycheck, they are capital, you are the proletariat.
We’ve been in the midst of a capital strike for 4 decades now, rebranded as neoliberalism, where capital only reinvests capital if it absolutely must, and then just the minimum. Every personal passion, every altruistic drive, or careers that give a sense of meaning will that same meaning held hostage and weaponized to silent dissent.
Complacency is complicity. The rallying cries have been handed down thru all of history
As long as one free man is jailed … First they came for …
Society, writ large, is a partnership. Highly specialized fields of study only exist because the cost to bring them in existence can be spread out amongst the bottom of the pyramid. If you’re worked hard, learned hard and lucky enough you might be able to be at the top of it.
But you’re just a part of the machine, not the driver or designer of it. The proper attitude at heights is gratitude and humility, being honored to have the chance to follow your passions, because how many below you, for whatever reason, had theirs compromised, stolen or confiscated. The brain outside the body isn’t even worth its caloric density.
I’m proud you’re fighting back and I’ll stand in a protest line with you - even if that means state violence, and it often does. The police are mercenaries for the wealthy, whom you’re at odds with, that means the police are not your allies here (some random cool sheriff notwithstanding).
We are all people here. We all have value independent of what capitalism rewards. No one is inherently better than anyone else. We are all just trying to live and be decent people. Don’t forget that.
I think their point was that in many fields, if people strike then the employer can somewhat easily find scabs to do the work in place of those striking, because everyone needs money to live. But in the medical field, along with a couple others, strikes can be even more effective because the employers legally can’t fill roles with just anyone who will do the work- they need someone with a MASSIVE amount of education and certification, which gives doctors even more bargaining power that they can be leveraging if they work together
Perhaps the lemmiest comment in all of lemmy
Thanks! I like lemmy! It reminds me of old reddit. Like 2010 reddit. Done right it feels like individual forums all within the same building. Done wrong, well, feels like reddit now. Or Facebook. Saccharine and sterile, emotionless money grab. As inviting as a room with drop ceilings and flickering fluorescent lighting, all the intuitive ambiance of chemotherapy.
So if that was meant as a knock, I don’t see how.
The police are mercenaries for the wealthy, whom you’re at odds with
Ah yes everyone knows doctors are poor.
In comparison to the shareholders who own the hospitals?
Yes, yes they are, it’s not even close.
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