I can understand what they’re saying. You expect hateful shit from the right-wing assholes, and fighting against their bullshit is a worthy cause.
But the left is prickly, including to its allies. Hell, especially to its allies. And it is so much more exhausting when it is coming from your own side.
As an example, when Lil Nas X was accused of faking being gay for, I guess money, or pushing some agenda, he said “I just like dick” and that there’s nothing deep to it. People started attacking him for “trans erasure” and such nonsense. The man didn’t say he likes all dick, and I’m sure if it were attached to a woman, he wouldn’t be about it (and if there was a man without one, he presumably also would not be interested). It was a toss away comment that is easily understood in the context, and people felt the need to attack him for it. It should not bear this level of analysis and scrutiny, but here we are.
It’s also a million times worse online, which was the OPs point. I’m a pinko commie by American standards, and I’ve been called a secret conservative online or downvoted to oblivion for daring to suggest that landlords should exist. The downvotes above just show how prickly and “no true leftist” some people are.
I’m not him, but the justification I’ve seen in the past is that some people move to different locations every few months to pursue work or they’re in an area temporarily for studies and don’t want to be permanently tied down. It was something along those lines. Even if that does justify the existence of *some* landlords, it doesn’t justify such a huge supermajority of housing being owned by them.
This happens, there is a lot of liberal left that believes that representation and words can shape the reality. But there is a lot of bad will from OP to generalize it
I am pro basic human decency, I just wish more online leftists realize you get things done with a big tent. Perfect is the enemy of good.
Fred Hampton wasn’t killed by the FBI because he had the most stringent purity tests, he was killed cause he was able to convince a lot of people to come under his tent to fight for workers.
Or, you know, it could turn someone away who is honestly ignorant and curious to learn more. But keep being a condescending piece of shit, that’ll work out great.
I think you just hit the nail right on the head there. One of the drawbacks to success is danger. If a person wants to be safe, it’s better to choose ineffective strategies that keep them
in the same place.
Personally, I’ve had comments I’ve posted on lemmy.ml deleted for “bigotry” for saying Iran supports Hamas which is an objective fact. It wasn’t even a commentary on policy but I’m still a bigot somehow.
I mean, shit, you even implied I am an enemy of basic human decency for making a mild criticism in a meme sub.
Realistically they’re generally anti-anyone that disagrees with them. Not just of anarchists, or actual communists for that matter. They just tend to hate anarchists and real communists more. Because they know and can articulate where the bodies are buried better than most others so to speak.
Yeah I’ve started unfollowing .ml communities because I’ve found it’s just not worth contributing. I have an alt on dbzero’s instance that I’ve found much better.
ML aren’t communist. Communist dislike them as well. I absolutely understand people not wanting to deal with ML though. They’re often just as bad as hard core capitalists. But don’t blame communists just because others missuse the noun, while not bothering with the actual ideology. Actual communists are pretty chill and generally your friend.
I dunno. I get spicy over there sometimes. Had a number of comments deleted etc. Though not been banned. I would barely notice if I was if it weren’t for an open source project or two having official communities over there for some reason. Hell half the time I only realize I was there after the fact. And while I agree that meme posting/shit posting is childish and unproductive. I’m thinking you might’ve given them reason to ban.
Hamas is a problem too and funded through Iran so I think they’d still be an issue even without the settler bs
This is the comment I was referencing. There’s some other comments that have been deleted on .ml which I find fair cause a couple were needlessly agressive when I was having a bad day. I see 9 mod/admin actions against my account on .ml. Can’t speak to why you can’t find it, they’re on there.
I’ve seen older people be cancelled or called fascists over the use of outdated words like ‘transgendered’, without even an explanation. Obviously, that word is now deprecated and considered a pejorative, but it used to be commonly accepted word and was even used within the community.
I’ve had people call me sexist, because I was critical of Mattel’s motives when making the Barbie movie. Mattel is a company run by a man, with an abysmal record on how they treat their (female) employees, and Barbie negatively damages girls’ body image.
I’ve also had people reply to comments in which I paraphrased or literally quoted feminist thinkers like Dworkin, of mansplaining or not being able to understand sexism because I lacked ‘lived experience’. It’s not a coincidence that plenty of left-wing feminists, were easy prey for right wing ideology and are now virulent transphobes. Eg. JK Rowling.
Being balanced or even slightly nuanced on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is also likely to result in you getting piled on in some terminally online left wing spaces, where people have gone to the other extreme and now seemingly implicitly or explictly support Hamas/Iran. Same thing for Russia/Ukraine.
You also just accused someone of lacking basic human decency, for criticizing what they perceived as the excesses of online leftists.
You say you’ve had people do these things, but I suspect you’ve had either bots or foreign agents do these things.
And a few suggestible people who actually do take on those behaviors.
Gotta remember there are people heavily invested in the US going down. The US hasn’t had a ground invasion, but we’ve definitely had a social media invasion.
Gun ownership. Leftist groups NEED gun owners, but will turn their nose up at them and call them Nazi’s.
The most amazing thing gun culture in the US did was get liberals to disarms themselves willingly by falsely associating gun ownership with toxic masculinity and conservative values.
The purity tests usually come from leftist adjacent groups that actually have nothing to do with left wing ideology. Read Tankies and some extremely small groups of vegans (Most are fine). They for some reason love telling you “Lefties who aren’t [INSERT THING HERE] are hypocritical and not real leftists”
Really it’s a huge nothing burger complaining about silly people on twitter and Reddit who ultimately do not matter.
Then you lack actual understanding of who leftist are and what they want. Which isn’t an attack against you or anything. Most people in Western societies have been mentally conditioned not. Including myself for the first 30 or so years of my life.
For example, in the United States, Nancy pelosi gets treated as a leftist simply because she’s a Democrat. Despite being pretty far right. All because she’s slightly to the left of fascists in the Republican party. And granted she is socially more tolerant than Republicans. And while social tolerance is good. Social tolerance does not a leftist make. You can be a socially tolerant capitalist, or a bigoted socialist.
Actual leftists don’t seek to be rich. And the further left you go the less likely to be rich in capitalist terms, you are. Leftist derive their wealth from a well functioning society.
They do matter. If they didn’t countries like Russia wouldn’t spend so much targetting them with propaganda and pushing them not to vote or vote against admittedly flawed left of centre parties.
I don’t know why this didn’t dawn on me until just now, but…
One thing the alt right’s pervasive bad faith online bullshit accomplishes is wearing down the left making us far more likely to respond with reflexive hostility to any hint of similar behavior. (Edit: often mistakenly)
It isn’t just about recruiting, trolling, power moves, “winning” arguments in others’ perception, but also fomenting infighting among the left.
You’re right, I think concern trolling is absolutely a factor in the knee jerk hostility for some. I think there are some that probably think I’m concern trolling in this thread right now. Thankfully I think my post history is a decent indication I’m not.
False. The only thing you need to be a leftist is empathy, a willingness to learn, and a willingness to teach what you’ve learned.
Leave your disdain at home. Disdain is what begets purity tests and misunderstandings. Everyone is born ignorant. Don’t disdain the ignorant. But don’t waste your time with those who refuse to learn.
As hard and frustrating as it can be for those in the west to escape the mental conditioning and brainwashing they all go through. It’s still sad to see people do that. Only to be indoctrinated into Marxist Leninist mindsets. Failing to learn from their failures of the last century. Which are often similarly, as bad as the capitalists.
Ah, but as a famous right-winger once pointed out, there are unknown unknowns.
When I discovered there was an emotion I had never felt before (by feeling it), it started my path toward conservatism.
I’ve always had empathy (actually my empathy had been whipped into an almost crippling over-sensitivity to the slightest discomfort in others by a childhood of emotional abuse), and a powerful, delightful curiosity about the world.
It seemed perfectly natural to me to be a leftist. (I’m actually a liberal but these days that comes off as right wing)
I believed what I was told about what conservatives believed:
I got mine
Fuck weak people
Macho bullshit involving guns
I had a republican friend in high school. We’d debate politics, and he’d sit there giving reasoned responses to everything I said, and I’d eventually raise my voice for a forceful claim, and he … would calmly present some other evidence. Then I’d tell myself that he doesn’t understand because he’s middle class and comfortable, and too young to see how callous he’s being.
But then I went from poor to homeless. And while I was homeless, the only way to stay safe was to be armed. I got attacked, and discovered that there was a feeling beyond fear, called terror. I knew the word but assumed it meant extreme fear. That’s not what it refers to. It refers to a thing most of us don’t experience, because our society is so stable.
The terror refused to be ignored, even after it was over. It came with an imperative: I must never feel this again. My mind raced through the options. How could I make sure I never feel that again? I didn’t have a choice but to absorb this new knowledge of being’s extent into my philosophy.
I tried to buy pepper spray. Denied. Required a license in MA (law since changed, thank god), and as a homeless man I didn’t get licenses for things.
I had never felt injustice like that. Here I was without walls, without much muscle, without many calories, and living on the streets of Boston with drunk fuckheads who beat up homeless men for sport, and whereas reality has said “ah we’ve got a thing for that, called pepper spray. Great for getting attackers off you”, but the local government was like “Yeah but … you don’t get to have it”
And I realized why being armed is a human right.
Anyway I got a knife instead. Way less effective as a defense than pepper spray. It won’t stop an attack.
So along with the knife I had to vow that I would slice the next attacker crotch to chin. He might even kill me, but not without getting scarred for life. I had to vow this. The reasoning why I had to strike back while being killed is obvious to anyone who’s had to handle their own security without recourse to authority. And to anyone who hasn’t had to do that, unless they are completely, open-mindedly devoted to logic no matter where it takes them, they will simply reject the reasoning.
So I won’t bother spelling it out. You either get it or you don’t.
And because I have empathy, my understanding of weapons as a human right, and of the knowledge that the basement goes a lot deeper than most people have ever gone, translated into a new political philosophy. I don’t just want myself to be protected from drunk frat boys who decide to kick a man in the head repeatedly for no reason. I want everyone to be protected from that.
And not just the people in the future, after we’ve achieve star trek communism. Also right now. The people right now who have predators around them. I don’t want them to have to wait for society to completely reform itself, before they feel safe.
As a liberal I already believed in free market, self determination, merit, democracy, etc.
But the only people who understood my new stance toward being capable of mayhem, were conservatives.
Dang that was long.
And of course, the last thing to say is that people who are leftists because of ignorance of how bad it can get, don’t know that they don’t know this thing. They think they know the map, that there aren’t any parts of the map they haven’t seen. Therefore, the difference must be in a person’s values: they don’t give a shit about other people. Or, they simply don’t look into things, ie they must know less of the map, and that’s where the political difference comes from.
But sometimes the people on the other side went over there when they saw something you haven’t seen yet. Sometimes, the people who disagree with you do so because they know more, not less.
I’ve always found clearing all the purity tests online leftists ask you to jump through to be the tricky part
You mean basic human decency?
Like, can you give one example of what you’re complaining about as an unrealistic standard?
I can understand what they’re saying. You expect hateful shit from the right-wing assholes, and fighting against their bullshit is a worthy cause.
But the left is prickly, including to its allies. Hell, especially to its allies. And it is so much more exhausting when it is coming from your own side.
As an example, when Lil Nas X was accused of faking being gay for, I guess money, or pushing some agenda, he said “I just like dick” and that there’s nothing deep to it. People started attacking him for “trans erasure” and such nonsense. The man didn’t say he likes all dick, and I’m sure if it were attached to a woman, he wouldn’t be about it (and if there was a man without one, he presumably also would not be interested). It was a toss away comment that is easily understood in the context, and people felt the need to attack him for it. It should not bear this level of analysis and scrutiny, but here we are.
It’s also a million times worse online, which was the OPs point. I’m a pinko commie by American standards, and I’ve been called a secret conservative online or downvoted to oblivion for daring to suggest that landlords should exist. The downvotes above just show how prickly and “no true leftist” some people are.
Why exactly do you think landlord should exist?
As an actual communist, I think that’s a weird stance.
I’m not him, but the justification I’ve seen in the past is that some people move to different locations every few months to pursue work or they’re in an area temporarily for studies and don’t want to be permanently tied down. It was something along those lines. Even if that does justify the existence of *some* landlords, it doesn’t justify such a huge supermajority of housing being owned by them.
This happens, there is a lot of liberal left that believes that representation and words can shape the reality. But there is a lot of bad will from OP to generalize it
Nah man. Left isn’t just prickly. 100% of the comments I’ve ever seen calling for death and mistreatment of people have been from the left.
Maybe it’s going on in some right wing cesspit somewhere, but not here in public.
I just started saving them recently, so my collection is small but here’s one: https://lemmy.ca/comment/6580270
I see a few a day, and I intend to keep saving them. As time goes on, I’ll have a longer and longer list.
That comment was not directed at a person. It was directed at a billionaire. Those creatures are superhuman, and it is our moral duty to purge them.
I am pro basic human decency, I just wish more online leftists realize you get things done with a big tent. Perfect is the enemy of good.
Fred Hampton wasn’t killed by the FBI because he had the most stringent purity tests, he was killed cause he was able to convince a lot of people to come under his tent to fight for workers.
I mean… that’s most of us. Don’t confuse the loud obnoxious minority with reality.
I agree with that, but it pisses me off because the loud obnoxious folks repel new people.
If all it takes is loud and obnoxious to turn you away from your convictions then they weren’t very strong to begin with.
We don’t get turned from our convictions. We get turned away from communities we hoped to join to help us enact those convictions.
So you cut your nose to spite your face? Seems counterintuitive.
Or, you know, it could turn someone away who is honestly ignorant and curious to learn more. But keep being a condescending piece of shit, that’ll work out great.
You’re reading into my comment too far. I just said I find it annoying and counterproductive, I didn’t say I’ve changed my convictions.
I think you just hit the nail right on the head there. One of the drawbacks to success is danger. If a person wants to be safe, it’s better to choose ineffective strategies that keep them in the same place.
So…
Does that mean you can’t give a single example of what your complaining about?
Personally, I’ve had comments I’ve posted on lemmy.ml deleted for “bigotry” for saying Iran supports Hamas which is an objective fact. It wasn’t even a commentary on policy but I’m still a bigot somehow.
I mean, shit, you even implied I am an enemy of basic human decency for making a mild criticism in a meme sub.
Your first mistake was being active on the .ml instance which generally has been anti-anarchist
Realistically they’re generally anti-anyone that disagrees with them. Not just of anarchists, or actual communists for that matter. They just tend to hate anarchists and real communists more. Because they know and can articulate where the bodies are buried better than most others so to speak.
Yeah I’ve started unfollowing .ml communities because I’ve found it’s just not worth contributing. I have an alt on dbzero’s instance that I’ve found much better.
I’ve got the entire instance blocked from all my feeds. Same with the other communist-friendly shitholes.
ML aren’t communist. Communist dislike them as well. I absolutely understand people not wanting to deal with ML though. They’re often just as bad as hard core capitalists. But don’t blame communists just because others missuse the noun, while not bothering with the actual ideology. Actual communists are pretty chill and generally your friend.
I had an account full-on banned from that shithole for saying that the memes people use to respond to comments there are childish and cringy.
I dunno. I get spicy over there sometimes. Had a number of comments deleted etc. Though not been banned. I would barely notice if I was if it weren’t for an open source project or two having official communities over there for some reason. Hell half the time I only realize I was there after the fact. And while I agree that meme posting/shit posting is childish and unproductive. I’m thinking you might’ve given them reason to ban.
…
I checked the modlog because it takes two seconds, and your account name doesn’t seem to be in there?
I expected to see you misrepresenting what you said, but it looks like it was just all made up?
Unless that instance is set up differently, maybe if you gave me the sub I can find it?
This is the comment I was referencing. There’s some other comments that have been deleted on .ml which I find fair cause a couple were needlessly agressive when I was having a bad day. I see 9 mod/admin actions against my account on .ml. Can’t speak to why you can’t find it, they’re on there.
You keep replying but you never give real answers to questions…
I just don’t give enough of a shit about this to keep going or to get roped into this again with you later.
I gave you the verbatim comment that was deleted, pulled directly from Lemmy.ml’s modlog
You just got schooled in how wrong you were, and you’re just showing that you’re the exact person we’re talking about.
I’ve seen older people be cancelled or called fascists over the use of outdated words like ‘transgendered’, without even an explanation. Obviously, that word is now deprecated and considered a pejorative, but it used to be commonly accepted word and was even used within the community.
I’ve had people call me sexist, because I was critical of Mattel’s motives when making the Barbie movie. Mattel is a company run by a man, with an abysmal record on how they treat their (female) employees, and Barbie negatively damages girls’ body image.
I’ve also had people reply to comments in which I paraphrased or literally quoted feminist thinkers like Dworkin, of mansplaining or not being able to understand sexism because I lacked ‘lived experience’. It’s not a coincidence that plenty of left-wing feminists, were easy prey for right wing ideology and are now virulent transphobes. Eg. JK Rowling.
Being balanced or even slightly nuanced on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, is also likely to result in you getting piled on in some terminally online left wing spaces, where people have gone to the other extreme and now seemingly implicitly or explictly support Hamas/Iran. Same thing for Russia/Ukraine.
You also just accused someone of lacking basic human decency, for criticizing what they perceived as the excesses of online leftists.
This was my first thought when reading that comment… smh
It’s painfully un-self-aware.
The point about the Mattel CEO was literally a joke in the movie. The director clearly agreed with you.
Also: Mattel execs are on record as saying the Barbie movie isn’t feminist. Presumably they don’t want to annoy right wing and non-western audiences too much.
Don’t get me wrong, fun movie. But there are plenty of reasons to be sceptical of its feminist credentials.
But hey, what do I know. I’m just Ken.
You say you’ve had people do these things, but I suspect you’ve had either bots or foreign agents do these things.
And a few suggestible people who actually do take on those behaviors.
Gotta remember there are people heavily invested in the US going down. The US hasn’t had a ground invasion, but we’ve definitely had a social media invasion.
Gun ownership. Leftist groups NEED gun owners, but will turn their nose up at them and call them Nazi’s.
The most amazing thing gun culture in the US did was get liberals to disarms themselves willingly by falsely associating gun ownership with toxic masculinity and conservative values.
Read Marx. Acquire guns.
The purity tests usually come from leftist adjacent groups that actually have nothing to do with left wing ideology. Read Tankies and some extremely small groups of vegans (Most are fine). They for some reason love telling you “Lefties who aren’t [INSERT THING HERE] are hypocritical and not real leftists”
Really it’s a huge nothing burger complaining about silly people on twitter and Reddit who ultimately do not matter.
They matter because they’re loud and given attention.
Being loud and given attention, they can be the only example of “leftists” some people knowingly interact with.
Yep, it serves the wealthy well for people like them to be the things people visualize when they picture “the left”.
I picture the left as rich leftists who are evil, and poor leftists who are naive.
And yes, I’m aware the left sees us that way too.
Then you lack actual understanding of who leftist are and what they want. Which isn’t an attack against you or anything. Most people in Western societies have been mentally conditioned not. Including myself for the first 30 or so years of my life.
For example, in the United States, Nancy pelosi gets treated as a leftist simply because she’s a Democrat. Despite being pretty far right. All because she’s slightly to the left of fascists in the Republican party. And granted she is socially more tolerant than Republicans. And while social tolerance is good. Social tolerance does not a leftist make. You can be a socially tolerant capitalist, or a bigoted socialist.
Actual leftists don’t seek to be rich. And the further left you go the less likely to be rich in capitalist terms, you are. Leftist derive their wealth from a well functioning society.
See to me it is just about smoothing out the extremes.
We don’t get rich, but no one is poor.
But like communism, it sounds great on paper, but real life examples of success are lacking
They do matter. If they didn’t countries like Russia wouldn’t spend so much targetting them with propaganda and pushing them not to vote or vote against admittedly flawed left of centre parties.
Ahhh, the purity test starts.
I don’t know why this didn’t dawn on me until just now, but…
One thing the alt right’s pervasive bad faith online bullshit accomplishes is wearing down the left making us far more likely to respond with reflexive hostility to any hint of similar behavior. (Edit: often mistakenly)
It isn’t just about recruiting, trolling, power moves, “winning” arguments in others’ perception, but also fomenting infighting among the left.
You’re right, I think concern trolling is absolutely a factor in the knee jerk hostility for some. I think there are some that probably think I’m concern trolling in this thread right now. Thankfully I think my post history is a decent indication I’m not.
Yes! It’s all our fault that you’re shitty online. Fuckin love it
The downvotes are a funny proof. Guess you failed a test…
The only thing you really need to be a leftist is emphathy and a disdain for ignorance, after you have that everything else will fall into place.
False. The only thing you need to be a leftist is empathy, a willingness to learn, and a willingness to teach what you’ve learned.
Leave your disdain at home. Disdain is what begets purity tests and misunderstandings. Everyone is born ignorant. Don’t disdain the ignorant. But don’t waste your time with those who refuse to learn.
As hard and frustrating as it can be for those in the west to escape the mental conditioning and brainwashing they all go through. It’s still sad to see people do that. Only to be indoctrinated into Marxist Leninist mindsets. Failing to learn from their failures of the last century. Which are often similarly, as bad as the capitalists.
Ah, but as a famous right-winger once pointed out, there are unknown unknowns.
When I discovered there was an emotion I had never felt before (by feeling it), it started my path toward conservatism.
I’ve always had empathy (actually my empathy had been whipped into an almost crippling over-sensitivity to the slightest discomfort in others by a childhood of emotional abuse), and a powerful, delightful curiosity about the world.
It seemed perfectly natural to me to be a leftist. (I’m actually a liberal but these days that comes off as right wing)
I believed what I was told about what conservatives believed:
I had a republican friend in high school. We’d debate politics, and he’d sit there giving reasoned responses to everything I said, and I’d eventually raise my voice for a forceful claim, and he … would calmly present some other evidence. Then I’d tell myself that he doesn’t understand because he’s middle class and comfortable, and too young to see how callous he’s being.
But then I went from poor to homeless. And while I was homeless, the only way to stay safe was to be armed. I got attacked, and discovered that there was a feeling beyond fear, called terror. I knew the word but assumed it meant extreme fear. That’s not what it refers to. It refers to a thing most of us don’t experience, because our society is so stable.
The terror refused to be ignored, even after it was over. It came with an imperative: I must never feel this again. My mind raced through the options. How could I make sure I never feel that again? I didn’t have a choice but to absorb this new knowledge of being’s extent into my philosophy.
I tried to buy pepper spray. Denied. Required a license in MA (law since changed, thank god), and as a homeless man I didn’t get licenses for things.
I had never felt injustice like that. Here I was without walls, without much muscle, without many calories, and living on the streets of Boston with drunk fuckheads who beat up homeless men for sport, and whereas reality has said “ah we’ve got a thing for that, called pepper spray. Great for getting attackers off you”, but the local government was like “Yeah but … you don’t get to have it”
And I realized why being armed is a human right.
Anyway I got a knife instead. Way less effective as a defense than pepper spray. It won’t stop an attack.
So along with the knife I had to vow that I would slice the next attacker crotch to chin. He might even kill me, but not without getting scarred for life. I had to vow this. The reasoning why I had to strike back while being killed is obvious to anyone who’s had to handle their own security without recourse to authority. And to anyone who hasn’t had to do that, unless they are completely, open-mindedly devoted to logic no matter where it takes them, they will simply reject the reasoning.
So I won’t bother spelling it out. You either get it or you don’t.
And because I have empathy, my understanding of weapons as a human right, and of the knowledge that the basement goes a lot deeper than most people have ever gone, translated into a new political philosophy. I don’t just want myself to be protected from drunk frat boys who decide to kick a man in the head repeatedly for no reason. I want everyone to be protected from that.
And not just the people in the future, after we’ve achieve star trek communism. Also right now. The people right now who have predators around them. I don’t want them to have to wait for society to completely reform itself, before they feel safe.
As a liberal I already believed in free market, self determination, merit, democracy, etc.
But the only people who understood my new stance toward being capable of mayhem, were conservatives.
Dang that was long.
And of course, the last thing to say is that people who are leftists because of ignorance of how bad it can get, don’t know that they don’t know this thing. They think they know the map, that there aren’t any parts of the map they haven’t seen. Therefore, the difference must be in a person’s values: they don’t give a shit about other people. Or, they simply don’t look into things, ie they must know less of the map, and that’s where the political difference comes from.
But sometimes the people on the other side went over there when they saw something you haven’t seen yet. Sometimes, the people who disagree with you do so because they know more, not less.