You’ve convinced me. I will stop wanting socialism now. It can never happen. I accept the liberal order. Capitalism is a force of good. I will no longer vote for the democratic socialists. I will vote for the liberal establishment. I will be acting like a good citizen of western democracy. Yes this is good. Capitalism is the best humanity can do. It will never achieve anything better. If humanity were to exist for another 10,000 years, they will still be doing capitalism because we did it: We achieved the best we can ever do with capitalism and strong regulations.
You think idealism is bad, yet you believe “at the end of the day the very best we can really hope for is capitalism with strong, firmly enforced and well thought out regulations.”
That is idealism. Capitalism will continue to kill people in other countries while you vacation every summer. Capitalism is good for you so you want it to continue. I’m sorry, but I can’t live my life that way. You can, and good for you for that—I envy it. You need to learn that you have to pay more in taxes so people you don’t see every day don’t suffer. I can lead a horse to water, but I can’t make it drink.
Is this an invitation to share more of my reasoning on why I think socialism is impossible? Or was there a circular argument that you heard in what I said?
So if I’m understanding you correctly, a constrained capitalism is idealism (fair) and somehow the farther left side of that is more realistic (absurd)?
If anything you’re making my point for me.
You want to paint me as some defender of capitalism or accepting of it because of my creature comforts…fill your boots, you don’t know me. But at least get your logic in check.
Any government is possible. You do not know american history, or human history, enough or how the government works. If America continues after Donald Trump, then it will be something completely different than what it looked like before him. More and more Democratic Socialists are getting elected. Socialism is more and more likely the more socialists americans elect. My state house of representatives in Kentucky got one more. Times may be changing.
Your view of humans is wrong btw. You may be projecting.
Are you conflating democratic socialism with full blown socialism? That is most certainly not true socialism.
Evidence in my favor includes the Nordic countries, having a very firmly capitalist society with strong welfare policies. They blow the west out of the water on social outcomes.
But that’s not socialism. That’s exactly what I’m advocating for.
So do you think the Nordic countries are still too capitalist, or do you actually mean to argue that they’re an example to follow? I guess it has to be the first?
Democratic socialism is not social democracy. The nordic model is social democracy (european capitalism I call it). Democratic socialism is socialism, the thing I keep saying I want.
Europe is capitalist, I want socialism. Europe, as a whole, is too right wing and not anti capitalist, pro socialist, and leftist enough for me. I want america to be more socialist than capitalist europe. I do not care about Europe’s future politically or their choices. I am more than happy to take what works for them, but I won’t base that idea off of a meme. I don’t think capitalism works for everyone in this world, and I’m not okay with it working for just a few. I am willing to be taxed higher, and I am okay with you being taxed higher, to achieve a system that lets the US coincide with the rest of the world without killing people. This means European capitalism (social democracy) is not enough for me.
I don’t care about the west. ‘The west’ is a mythological culture that doesn’t exist. Anyone who uses ‘the west’ with me will be met with a blank stare unless you closely define what that means, because I don’t believe anyone actually knows what that is. Democracy on its own accord is insufficient to establish pluralism, universalism, and cosmopolitanism. It needs socialism to achieve that. No amount of capitalistic regulation is going to bring in a multi-cultural state that treats every worker equally. Capitalism cannot treat its workers well. This is a fact. Capitalists may have offices in your ‘western’ countries that have high quality of life, but the actual bottom-tier laborers are in other places that don’t have such high living standards, and capitalists in the west like this arrangement.
You’ve convinced me. I will stop wanting socialism now. It can never happen. I accept the liberal order. Capitalism is a force of good. I will no longer vote for the democratic socialists. I will vote for the liberal establishment. I will be acting like a good citizen of western democracy. Yes this is good. Capitalism is the best humanity can do. It will never achieve anything better. If humanity were to exist for another 10,000 years, they will still be doing capitalism because we did it: We achieved the best we can ever do with capitalism and strong regulations.
You think idealism is bad, yet you believe “at the end of the day the very best we can really hope for is capitalism with strong, firmly enforced and well thought out regulations.”
That is idealism. Capitalism will continue to kill people in other countries while you vacation every summer. Capitalism is good for you so you want it to continue. I’m sorry, but I can’t live my life that way. You can, and good for you for that—I envy it. You need to learn that you have to pay more in taxes so people you don’t see every day don’t suffer. I can lead a horse to water, but I can’t make it drink.
The best they ever have to offer is circular reasoning or no reasoning at all. Makes me wonder why they believe it.
Do they even realize when they’re mixing feelings (or ideals) with facts? 🤷♂️
Is this an invitation to share more of my reasoning on why I think socialism is impossible? Or was there a circular argument that you heard in what I said?
So if I’m understanding you correctly, a constrained capitalism is idealism (fair) and somehow the farther left side of that is more realistic (absurd)?
If anything you’re making my point for me.
You want to paint me as some defender of capitalism or accepting of it because of my creature comforts…fill your boots, you don’t know me. But at least get your logic in check.
Analogy: it’s more realistic to cut a tumor out and heal the patient than to keep it growing at an acceptable rate.
Ah yes, except for when the tumor is 90% of the body. Then you can’t just cut it out.
Good analogy, I like it.
Any government is possible. You do not know american history, or human history, enough or how the government works. If America continues after Donald Trump, then it will be something completely different than what it looked like before him. More and more Democratic Socialists are getting elected. Socialism is more and more likely the more socialists americans elect. My state house of representatives in Kentucky got one more. Times may be changing.
Your view of humans is wrong btw. You may be projecting.
Are you conflating democratic socialism with full blown socialism? That is most certainly not true socialism.
Evidence in my favor includes the Nordic countries, having a very firmly capitalist society with strong welfare policies. They blow the west out of the water on social outcomes.
But that’s not socialism. That’s exactly what I’m advocating for.
So do you think the Nordic countries are still too capitalist, or do you actually mean to argue that they’re an example to follow? I guess it has to be the first?
Democratic socialism is not social democracy. The nordic model is social democracy (european capitalism I call it). Democratic socialism is socialism, the thing I keep saying I want.
Europe is capitalist, I want socialism. Europe, as a whole, is too right wing and not anti capitalist, pro socialist, and leftist enough for me. I want america to be more socialist than capitalist europe. I do not care about Europe’s future politically or their choices. I am more than happy to take what works for them, but I won’t base that idea off of a meme. I don’t think capitalism works for everyone in this world, and I’m not okay with it working for just a few. I am willing to be taxed higher, and I am okay with you being taxed higher, to achieve a system that lets the US coincide with the rest of the world without killing people. This means European capitalism (social democracy) is not enough for me.
I don’t care about the west. ‘The west’ is a mythological culture that doesn’t exist. Anyone who uses ‘the west’ with me will be met with a blank stare unless you closely define what that means, because I don’t believe anyone actually knows what that is. Democracy on its own accord is insufficient to establish pluralism, universalism, and cosmopolitanism. It needs socialism to achieve that. No amount of capitalistic regulation is going to bring in a multi-cultural state that treats every worker equally. Capitalism cannot treat its workers well. This is a fact. Capitalists may have offices in your ‘western’ countries that have high quality of life, but the actual bottom-tier laborers are in other places that don’t have such high living standards, and capitalists in the west like this arrangement.