There’s some really flawed reasoning going into your ideas here. I’m gonna go way out on some limbs and try to enumerate the different stuff that seems to underpin your ideas, but if I get something wrong feel free to lay it out.
If you’re considering any vote that isn’t for trump to be against trump than my psl ballot is against trump too and voting “against” trump is a meaningless distinction.
If only a vote for a candidate that has a chance at beating trump counts as a vote against him then unless the polls change somehow your Biden vote isn’t a vote “against” trump.
If you’re suggesting that only a vote for the candidate who has the best chance to beat trump counts as a vote against trump, you’re discounting the fact that Biden doesn’t have to be that candidate. He could still step down or not be selected at the convention.
It is not semantics to be clear about how the electoral system works. Votes are for candidates, not against them. It’s important to recognize that because parties will look at vote totals to see what is acceptable political action, messaging, etc.
That’s not semantics, it’s how the system works. It’s not a semantic distinction because opposition to one candidate does not mean support for another, but voting for a candidate indicates support for them and their actions and platform.
The reason that’s important is because a person has to both pick one of the understandings of voting for Biden in opposition to trump that I laid out above (or some different one that I missed!) and accept that their vote for Biden is literally a vote in support of his aid and denial of a genocide that we see disgusting images of everyday.
The problem with waiving your hands about what trump is gonna do is that almost every American made it through trumps term. They saw how he operated and what he did. You have a hard time convincing a person that the president who didn’t do a genocide is gonna be worse than the one who is at this very moment supplying one and denying its existence at the same time.
I don’t say that to defend trump, but to illustrate how that line of thinking opens you up to some pretty straightforward critiques from a person who actually is considering voting for trump.
That’s who you wanna convince, right? The undecided voter? How do you expect to convince someone who can remember no genocide when they compare it with the presence of a genocide?
It’s not an enviable position.
I think you have a deeply flawed and warped worldview if you would say the blood of Palestinians is on the hands of every taxpayer. Americans should be angry that a genocide is being committed in our names, but we bear no responsibility for it because despite a majority in favor of ending arms shipments and immediate ceasefire, Biden continues on.
And you would have me vote for the man who will aid and deny a genocide despite it being universally unpopular? Because the other guy is worse? The other guy who was already president just four short years ago and didn’t do what Biden is doing?
No.
We are given a chance to record our political will this November and mine won’t be in favor of Bidens genocide.
Hey bloodfart, the only reason I can still have a job and access healthcare in a lot of places is because of Biden working to reverse Trump’s anti-trans stuff. I get that you feel all high and mighty telling people that folks like me don’t matter enough but this shit is kinda important to some of us.
If you’re considering any vote that isn’t for trump to be against trump than my psl ballot is against trump too and voting “against” trump is a meaningless distinction.
The only currently available candidate that stands a chance is Biden. I know you cover that in your next sentence so:
If only a vote for a candidate that has a chance at beating trump counts as a vote against him then unless the polls change somehow your Biden vote isn’t a vote “against” trump.
Biden has still has a chance of beating Trump. The polls are horseshit.
If you’re suggesting that only a vote for the candidate who has the best chance to beat trump counts as a vote against trump, you’re discounting the fact that Biden doesn’t have to be that candidate. He could still step down or not be selected at the convention.
If that were to happen I would be elated.
It is not semantics to be clear about how the electoral system works. Votes are for candidates, not against them. It’s important to recognize that because parties will look at vote totals to see what is acceptable political action, messaging, etc.
You can say what you like, but this is still just semantics. I understand what you’re saying is technically correct, but you’re missing the point of what is being said when somebody says they are voting against something.
You’re ignoring the intended meaning and focusing on the technical mechanics.
and accept that their vote for Biden is literally a vote in support of his aid and denial of a genocide that we see disgusting images of everyday.
A vote for a candidate is not a blanket support for all policies and actions they make.
from a person who actually is considering voting for trump.
Then you’re an even bigger fool than you initially let on.
That’s who you wanna convince, right? The undecided voter? How do you expect to convince someone who can remember no genocide when they compare it with the presence of a genocide?
This isn’t my job. And you’re not who I’m here to convince.
I think you have a deeply flawed and warped worldview if you would say the blood of Palestinians is on the hands of every taxpayer.
Every single tax payer is ultimately sending their money to the federal government, who then uses that money to bomb and kill Palestinians. Most states gave police training ops with the IDF.
That’s not a warped view, those are the facts, and it means blood is on all of our hands.
despite a majority in favor of ending arms shipments and immediate ceasefire, Biden continues on.
And yet we pay our taxes, which kills Palestinians. You bear responsibility just as I. You can’t avoid that anymore than you can avoid a Trump/Biden winning.
If you’d be elated that Biden stepped down or that the convention put someone else up, join me in telling everyone that they don’t have to vote for Biden. That’s how you get the thing you want. You commit to not voting for Biden.
A vote can only ever be interpreted as blanket support for the candidate’s policies and actions. You don’t get to say “i like Biden but not his border detentions”, you get to say “Biden”. Consent to the candidates program is part of casting a vote for them and if you can’t stomach going on a permanent record as saying “I support Bidens genocide” then don’t vote for him.
I am not considering voting for trump. I decided sixteen years ago that I wouldn’t vote for Biden again and am planning on marking my ballot psl this year. As I wrote, I invoked a person considering voting for trump over Biden to illustrate how difficult it is to portray trump as a clear danger more important than an ongoing genocide.
I asked if that was who you were trying to convince because it’s either undecideds, nonvoters or me and you will never convince me to vote for Biden. You said you’re not here to convince me, so who is it, undecideds, non voters or some third group?
If you really believed that the blood of innocent people was on the hands of every American due to Biden actions you wouldn’t be in here telling people to vote for him.
If you believed that you were made a genocidare by his disgusting rhetoric and material support you’d be opposed to him. You’d be in the streets protesting or campaigning to end support to israel or any other number of other actions but instead you’re on the internet trying to advocate against doing the bare minimum to stop Biden policy that you say taints us all. Media can say all kinds of things about protest movements and the White House can deploy its press secretary to dodge questions about crackdown on antiwar actions but neither can deny a vote cast and counted.
Make your voice heard to them with the only device given you that can’t be manipulated or deepfaked or covered up. Vote third party this November.
join me in telling everyone that they don’t have to vote for Biden. That’s how you get the thing you want. You commit to not voting for Biden.
The error in this is that you are relying on boomer who’s supporting genocide to do the right thing. Be a gambler all you like, I’m not going to gamble with fascism. It’s shortsighted and will get overall more people killed.
Every fucking day Biden’s campaign team sends me emails asking for donations, and they send me like 8 every day. And every time I respond with imagery of dead fucking bodies in Palestine. And do you know how they’ve responded? They fucking haven’t. They know they’re losing votes because of this. They know they’re losing ground because of this, because every other email from them is them complaining that they are getting out fundraised by Trump.
But they don’t even give enough of a shit to have one of their lower level lackeys from their campaign team respond. They truly do not give a shit. And you’re gonna trust them to do the right thing and step down? You’re gonna trust genocide supporters to do the right thing?
A vote can only ever be interpreted as blanket support for the candidate’s policies
Not so. A vote can be interpreted a million different ways. It’s a number, not an essay of love. It is a statement saying “of all of these choices, X is my preference”. Trying to decipher any more meaning of that requires more data which isn’t captured in an election.
How do you tell the difference between a voter who chose a candidate at random versus one who chose them because they were best friends? You can’t.
You don’t get to say “i like Biden but not his border detentions”, you get to say “Biden”.
Sure you can, you just did. You’re comparing a fully articulated thought to a vote, of course they aren’t going to match.
As I wrote, I invoked a person considering voting for trump over Biden to illustrate how difficult it is to portray trump as a clear danger more important than an ongoing genocide.
It isn’t difficult to illustrate how much larger of a danger Trump is:
You said you’re not here to convince me, so who is it, undecideds, non voters or some third group?
Anybody fence sitting.
If you really believed that the blood of innocent people was on the hands of every American due to Biden actions you wouldn’t be in here telling people to vote for him.
Why not? And it isn’t just Biden’s actions, it’s pretty much every major political action the U.S. has ever taken since it’s inception. And word of advice, if you’re trying to convince people, starting from a position of “you don’t ACTUALLY believe X because you said Y” is just silly, and a waste of everyone’s time.
If you believed that you were made a genocidare by his disgusting rhetoric and material support you’d be opposed to him
I’ve already explain that’s not how this works. It’s a two party system.
You’d be in the streets protesting or campaigning to end support to israel or any other number of other actions
I’m trying not to get shot by our police state and widowing my disabled wife. So yeah, fuck me I guess.
Make your voice heard to them with the only device given you that can’t be manipulated or deepfaked or covered up. Vote third party this November.
I will not be handing Trump another victory, no thank you. It was a disaster the first time we decided to botch it in 2016, it’s going to be even worse this time.
you don’t believe the democrats will listen or can be pushed left. you don’t believe they have any intention of changing course and that they have accepted that they’ll lose votes because of it. you don’t believe they can be trusted to make the right choices, choices you would support.
you aren’t able to take direct action that would reflect your political beliefs and your clear eyed possession of a basic moral compass (i’m right there with you, my 60 hour workweek, family obligations and employer preclude me from much more than being present at events and holding signs).
but you won’t reflect any of that with the action you are able to take in november, denying the democrats your vote that they have already counted out. you aren’t willing to make your voice heard in the only way that they will listen to.
you posted some memes and its important to recognize that this isn’t some hypothetical or thought experiment. a sitting american president is literally aiding a genocide and denying its existence at the same time. you have the opportunity to not support that action.
you can register your dissatisfaction with that in a way that cannot be deepfaked, covered up, misinterpreted or sidelined by casting a ballot for a party whose platform is “palestinian statehood and stop weapons shipments to israel”.
it won’t require that you put yourself in danger or that you expose yourself to attack and it doesn’t take any more time than what you were already planning to do.
on the topic of how a vote can be interpreted, let me give you a concrete example that will hopefully help illustrate what i’m saying: biden received 81,283,501 votes in 2020. was the biden campaign team able to examine, for example, vote number 12,345,678 and determine if that person genuinely believed in biden’s platform or if they were simply disgusted with trumps covid response?
of course they were not. votes are interpreted by campaigns as support. they are not able to interpret them as anything but that. that’s not because the voters genuinely support those candidates, but because the vote only contains information about support.
that’s why campaigns use a bunch of other methods to figure out what people were actually trying to express with their votes, like polls, statistical analysis and interviews, to varying degrees of accuracy.
Idealistic sophistry at best, malicious deceit at worst.
In a perfect world, I would agree with you. In your fever dream, I probably do. Unfortunately, we have to play the hand we’re dealt and exist in reality. In reality, the system doesn’t work the way you wish it did.
Please, do everything you’re saying you’re going to do, make your idealist stand and pat yourself on the back because because you took the moral high ground and voted for who you thought was best.
I know you’re going to come back with the logic of “vote for != vote against” and you’re not wrong. There’s no defense against that. In a fair, and just world, you’re absolutely right. Unfortunately, the rest of us don’t live in your idealist leftist utopia, and are stuck on mundane terra firma. Enjoy your smug satisfaction as you look around in a self-congratulatory stupor knowing that you didn’t vote for someone who didn’t implement your idealism as immediately as you wished for.
The rest of us, “liberals” or whatever the term is now days… I can’t keep it straight anymore, too old and tired… conservatives who can no longer handle the directions their party is going, libertarians who can no longer abide stupidity, and the unaffiliated who simply want people to be able to live as who and what they are…love who and what they are, we will vote. Sure, it’ll be a vote for the status quo, but as the status quo sits now…it’s better than the alternative.
I know you find the status quo morally repugnant, and frankly I don’t fault you a bit. It is, you’re right. We should be so much further down the path than we are. Is the Democrat du jour going to get us there? No, probably not. Are they going to step in the right direction? Maybe. Are they going to be a triage scenario to stop the hemorrhaging and stabilize the patient so they survive long enough to get to a place where actual work can be done? Hopefully, definitely more so than the republican du jour.
It’s meatball politics. It’s ugly, it’s unpleasant, it’s sad that we have to fight so hard to simply stay where we’re at.
If you read this far, I appreciate it. This is a lot of thoughts I’ve had reading yours and other comments throughout various forums. You are not the cause of all of these, but you were the catalyst that drove pen to paper.
I’m not looking to debate you, mainly for two reasons.
There’s no point.
You’re not technically wrong. I’m not going to dissuade you, and you’re not going to elevate me beyond reality.
I hope you have a good day neighbor, and may you find the utopia you so richly deserve.
There’s some really flawed reasoning going into your ideas here. I’m gonna go way out on some limbs and try to enumerate the different stuff that seems to underpin your ideas, but if I get something wrong feel free to lay it out.
If you’re considering any vote that isn’t for trump to be against trump than my psl ballot is against trump too and voting “against” trump is a meaningless distinction.
If only a vote for a candidate that has a chance at beating trump counts as a vote against him then unless the polls change somehow your Biden vote isn’t a vote “against” trump.
If you’re suggesting that only a vote for the candidate who has the best chance to beat trump counts as a vote against trump, you’re discounting the fact that Biden doesn’t have to be that candidate. He could still step down or not be selected at the convention.
It is not semantics to be clear about how the electoral system works. Votes are for candidates, not against them. It’s important to recognize that because parties will look at vote totals to see what is acceptable political action, messaging, etc.
That’s not semantics, it’s how the system works. It’s not a semantic distinction because opposition to one candidate does not mean support for another, but voting for a candidate indicates support for them and their actions and platform.
The reason that’s important is because a person has to both pick one of the understandings of voting for Biden in opposition to trump that I laid out above (or some different one that I missed!) and accept that their vote for Biden is literally a vote in support of his aid and denial of a genocide that we see disgusting images of everyday.
The problem with waiving your hands about what trump is gonna do is that almost every American made it through trumps term. They saw how he operated and what he did. You have a hard time convincing a person that the president who didn’t do a genocide is gonna be worse than the one who is at this very moment supplying one and denying its existence at the same time.
I don’t say that to defend trump, but to illustrate how that line of thinking opens you up to some pretty straightforward critiques from a person who actually is considering voting for trump.
That’s who you wanna convince, right? The undecided voter? How do you expect to convince someone who can remember no genocide when they compare it with the presence of a genocide?
It’s not an enviable position.
I think you have a deeply flawed and warped worldview if you would say the blood of Palestinians is on the hands of every taxpayer. Americans should be angry that a genocide is being committed in our names, but we bear no responsibility for it because despite a majority in favor of ending arms shipments and immediate ceasefire, Biden continues on.
And you would have me vote for the man who will aid and deny a genocide despite it being universally unpopular? Because the other guy is worse? The other guy who was already president just four short years ago and didn’t do what Biden is doing?
No.
We are given a chance to record our political will this November and mine won’t be in favor of Bidens genocide.
Hey bloodfart, the only reason I can still have a job and access healthcare in a lot of places is because of Biden working to reverse Trump’s anti-trans stuff. I get that you feel all high and mighty telling people that folks like me don’t matter enough but this shit is kinda important to some of us.
Theres a story I like called the ones who walk away from omelas. It’s pretty good.
The only currently available candidate that stands a chance is Biden. I know you cover that in your next sentence so:
Biden has still has a chance of beating Trump. The polls are horseshit.
If that were to happen I would be elated.
You can say what you like, but this is still just semantics. I understand what you’re saying is technically correct, but you’re missing the point of what is being said when somebody says they are voting against something.
You’re ignoring the intended meaning and focusing on the technical mechanics.
A vote for a candidate is not a blanket support for all policies and actions they make.
Then you’re an even bigger fool than you initially let on.
This isn’t my job. And you’re not who I’m here to convince.
Every single tax payer is ultimately sending their money to the federal government, who then uses that money to bomb and kill Palestinians. Most states gave police training ops with the IDF.
That’s not a warped view, those are the facts, and it means blood is on all of our hands.
And yet we pay our taxes, which kills Palestinians. You bear responsibility just as I. You can’t avoid that anymore than you can avoid a Trump/Biden winning.
If you’d be elated that Biden stepped down or that the convention put someone else up, join me in telling everyone that they don’t have to vote for Biden. That’s how you get the thing you want. You commit to not voting for Biden.
A vote can only ever be interpreted as blanket support for the candidate’s policies and actions. You don’t get to say “i like Biden but not his border detentions”, you get to say “Biden”. Consent to the candidates program is part of casting a vote for them and if you can’t stomach going on a permanent record as saying “I support Bidens genocide” then don’t vote for him.
I am not considering voting for trump. I decided sixteen years ago that I wouldn’t vote for Biden again and am planning on marking my ballot psl this year. As I wrote, I invoked a person considering voting for trump over Biden to illustrate how difficult it is to portray trump as a clear danger more important than an ongoing genocide.
I asked if that was who you were trying to convince because it’s either undecideds, nonvoters or me and you will never convince me to vote for Biden. You said you’re not here to convince me, so who is it, undecideds, non voters or some third group?
If you really believed that the blood of innocent people was on the hands of every American due to Biden actions you wouldn’t be in here telling people to vote for him.
If you believed that you were made a genocidare by his disgusting rhetoric and material support you’d be opposed to him. You’d be in the streets protesting or campaigning to end support to israel or any other number of other actions but instead you’re on the internet trying to advocate against doing the bare minimum to stop Biden policy that you say taints us all. Media can say all kinds of things about protest movements and the White House can deploy its press secretary to dodge questions about crackdown on antiwar actions but neither can deny a vote cast and counted.
Make your voice heard to them with the only device given you that can’t be manipulated or deepfaked or covered up. Vote third party this November.
The error in this is that you are relying on boomer who’s supporting genocide to do the right thing. Be a gambler all you like, I’m not going to gamble with fascism. It’s shortsighted and will get overall more people killed.
Every fucking day Biden’s campaign team sends me emails asking for donations, and they send me like 8 every day. And every time I respond with imagery of dead fucking bodies in Palestine. And do you know how they’ve responded? They fucking haven’t. They know they’re losing votes because of this. They know they’re losing ground because of this, because every other email from them is them complaining that they are getting out fundraised by Trump.
But they don’t even give enough of a shit to have one of their lower level lackeys from their campaign team respond. They truly do not give a shit. And you’re gonna trust them to do the right thing and step down? You’re gonna trust genocide supporters to do the right thing?
Not so. A vote can be interpreted a million different ways. It’s a number, not an essay of love. It is a statement saying “of all of these choices, X is my preference”. Trying to decipher any more meaning of that requires more data which isn’t captured in an election.
How do you tell the difference between a voter who chose a candidate at random versus one who chose them because they were best friends? You can’t.
Sure you can, you just did. You’re comparing a fully articulated thought to a vote, of course they aren’t going to match.
It isn’t difficult to illustrate how much larger of a danger Trump is:
Anybody fence sitting.
Why not? And it isn’t just Biden’s actions, it’s pretty much every major political action the U.S. has ever taken since it’s inception. And word of advice, if you’re trying to convince people, starting from a position of “you don’t ACTUALLY believe X because you said Y” is just silly, and a waste of everyone’s time.
I’ve already explain that’s not how this works. It’s a two party system.
I’m trying not to get shot by our police state and widowing my disabled wife. So yeah, fuck me I guess.
I will not be handing Trump another victory, no thank you. It was a disaster the first time we decided to botch it in 2016, it’s going to be even worse this time.
so tell me if ive got this right:
you don’t believe the democrats will listen or can be pushed left. you don’t believe they have any intention of changing course and that they have accepted that they’ll lose votes because of it. you don’t believe they can be trusted to make the right choices, choices you would support.
you aren’t able to take direct action that would reflect your political beliefs and your clear eyed possession of a basic moral compass (i’m right there with you, my 60 hour workweek, family obligations and employer preclude me from much more than being present at events and holding signs).
but you won’t reflect any of that with the action you are able to take in november, denying the democrats your vote that they have already counted out. you aren’t willing to make your voice heard in the only way that they will listen to.
you posted some memes and its important to recognize that this isn’t some hypothetical or thought experiment. a sitting american president is literally aiding a genocide and denying its existence at the same time. you have the opportunity to not support that action.
you can register your dissatisfaction with that in a way that cannot be deepfaked, covered up, misinterpreted or sidelined by casting a ballot for a party whose platform is “palestinian statehood and stop weapons shipments to israel”.
it won’t require that you put yourself in danger or that you expose yourself to attack and it doesn’t take any more time than what you were already planning to do.
on the topic of how a vote can be interpreted, let me give you a concrete example that will hopefully help illustrate what i’m saying: biden received 81,283,501 votes in 2020. was the biden campaign team able to examine, for example, vote number 12,345,678 and determine if that person genuinely believed in biden’s platform or if they were simply disgusted with trumps covid response?
of course they were not. votes are interpreted by campaigns as support. they are not able to interpret them as anything but that. that’s not because the voters genuinely support those candidates, but because the vote only contains information about support.
that’s why campaigns use a bunch of other methods to figure out what people were actually trying to express with their votes, like polls, statistical analysis and interviews, to varying degrees of accuracy.
Idealistic sophistry at best, malicious deceit at worst.
In a perfect world, I would agree with you. In your fever dream, I probably do. Unfortunately, we have to play the hand we’re dealt and exist in reality. In reality, the system doesn’t work the way you wish it did.
Please, do everything you’re saying you’re going to do, make your idealist stand and pat yourself on the back because because you took the moral high ground and voted for who you thought was best.
I know you’re going to come back with the logic of “vote for != vote against” and you’re not wrong. There’s no defense against that. In a fair, and just world, you’re absolutely right. Unfortunately, the rest of us don’t live in your idealist leftist utopia, and are stuck on mundane terra firma. Enjoy your smug satisfaction as you look around in a self-congratulatory stupor knowing that you didn’t vote for someone who didn’t implement your idealism as immediately as you wished for.
The rest of us, “liberals” or whatever the term is now days… I can’t keep it straight anymore, too old and tired… conservatives who can no longer handle the directions their party is going, libertarians who can no longer abide stupidity, and the unaffiliated who simply want people to be able to live as who and what they are…love who and what they are, we will vote. Sure, it’ll be a vote for the status quo, but as the status quo sits now…it’s better than the alternative.
I know you find the status quo morally repugnant, and frankly I don’t fault you a bit. It is, you’re right. We should be so much further down the path than we are. Is the Democrat du jour going to get us there? No, probably not. Are they going to step in the right direction? Maybe. Are they going to be a triage scenario to stop the hemorrhaging and stabilize the patient so they survive long enough to get to a place where actual work can be done? Hopefully, definitely more so than the republican du jour.
It’s meatball politics. It’s ugly, it’s unpleasant, it’s sad that we have to fight so hard to simply stay where we’re at.
If you read this far, I appreciate it. This is a lot of thoughts I’ve had reading yours and other comments throughout various forums. You are not the cause of all of these, but you were the catalyst that drove pen to paper.
I’m not looking to debate you, mainly for two reasons.
I hope you have a good day neighbor, and may you find the utopia you so richly deserve.