• Luvs2Spuj@lemmy.world
    1863·
    16 days ago

    Conversation with ex girlfriend:

    Her: I just got my car back from the garage. They told me to keep an eye on the tyre wear, but I don’t really know what that means or how to do it.

    Me: I can show you how to do that if you like?

    Her: I don’t need you to mansplain things to me! MAN KNOW CAR THING, WOMAN NO DO.

    I stopped myself from correcting her interpretation of mansplaining, because it was clear that any man was forbidden from communicating normally with her.

    • MonkderDritte@feddit.de
      533·
      16 days ago

      “You said you didn’t know. But i know. Leave gender out of this.”

      Why would this not work?

          • dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world
            389·
            16 days ago

            Okay, here’s what I can share.

            The problem is that some people are hot garbage at explaining what they’re feeling while seeking emotional validation. In situations like this, they’re in a place of distress where thinking through stuff is just hard. The dialogue that GP lays out has subtext that can only be deduced by reading the parts where she is angry. In this case, her angered response at closing a knowledge gap strongly suggests that she really just wanted to be heard and supported.

            I think she might be bothered by the fact that the mechanic asked her to do something where she’s out of her depth. This sets up the following thoughts in her mind:

            • I didn’t really know how to take care of my car
            • A man had to explain that to me
            • I now have to do a thing that I don’t know how to do
            • It’s obvious to everyone at the auto shop that I don’t know what I’m doing


            … which is a recipe for embarrassment and vulnerability. And she’s gonna carry that feeling home. GP should follow up with a dialogue that demonstrates care and support, so she can process all this. If she really wants material help, like proper auto care, she’ll ask once she feels safe to do so.

            That said, it’s impossible to know for sure without confirming anything. To do that, we must be proactive with such people and ask smart questions up front to figure out where they want the conversation to go. But you’re going to have a whole conversation about this so make sure you have the next 30-60 minutes available. Also, pack your patience, because this has 0% to do with you, your feelings, and your answers to “problems”. Literally anyone is able to do this, but she trusts you to be there for her.

            Say things like this:

            • I’m here for you.
            • Are you in a “talking about feelings” place or “I’m looking for solutions” mode?
            • And how did that make you feel? (keep asking this throughout the conversation)
            • That sounds terrible/awful (or good/nice depending on the response - key here is validation)
            • “Mirror” - repeat back to them what you understand they told you (this works better than you think)


            Do not:

            • Offer alternate interpretations to what was said - if you must, ask if they’re okay with this
            • Escalate the mood - your role here is to bring serenity and support, don’t add to the bad vibes
            • Explain/mansplain/lecture in this moment - people sometimes need a whole day to get over stuff
            • Insert yourself into the conversation - even relating an anecdote can come off as a lecture
            • Enable bad behavior or call it out - this isn’t about you or your moral ethos, leave that for later


            This may seem like a real chore to some people; it did to me at first. The “right” answer may seem like “teach a man to fish” and all that. It’s so simple, right? But here’s the rub: we should all be doing this, and we should all be so supported. Having your bad day met with “well, here’s what you should have done instead” is just a miserable way to live.

            And yeah, absolutely awful people abuse this framework, can’t introspect, and/or never learn. It’s possible you’re in this situation right now, so be smart about it. Be mindful of patterns and ask to be heard in kind (reciprocate) when you think or feel you’re being taken advantage of (e.g. “you keep coming to me for support for the same problem over and over and I feel used”). When your feelings are being dismissed, stepped on, or outright abused, that’s the moment to re-think things. Seek help elsewhere.

            • urbeker@lemmy.world
              20·
              15 days ago

              This is a very well-considered comment but I don’t think this is very good advice.

              It is not reasonable to have a 30-60-minute one-sided conversation of feelings validation caused by someone asking you to do a routine task. Asking for help when you don’t know something specific is a completely normal response. Acting very aggressively to your partner when they ask if you want them to explain (Not explaining immediately) is not a reasonable or proportionate response. I can’t think of any situation where that is a justifiable response and I don’t think everyone should be “supported” in that way.

              The disproportionate response is a giveaway though that something else is wrong, either they were looking for an excuse to be angry or they were feeling especially insecure about the specific topic that they were corrected on. The relationship should be about acting as a team working to support each other, coming back and using your partner as an anger dump is a terrible behavior that will sow seeds of resentment and undermine any positive communication. That’s why I would try to work out what the real issue is next, but be clear that the initial behavior was unacceptable.

              I would also argue that the prevailing sentiment that when people come into a conversation after a bad time looking for validation of feelings giving solutions is wrong, is itself a bad take. For sure those conversations should start with validating the feelings and understanding what happened but ideally, they should finish with some discussion of solutions (If there can be one, some problems are open-ended, there may need even be a solution). I think this for two reasons, firstly it stops the topic from hanging over people by closing the topic and can give the other person a sense of having helped which alleviates the one-sided nature of the discussion. Secondly just validating feelings doesn’t scale to the harder conversations, if you can’t end a discussion about feeling insecure about car maintenance by learning how to do the maintenance, how the hell are you going to have a good conversation about whether your parent gets put into care that ends in a decision?

              There is also an undercurrent of normalizing selfishness with some of the advice given out, not you specifically but this kind of advice is in the zeitgeist. Why is the person who is upset more valued in the discussion than the person who isn’t? More specifically there is a narrative that someone that likes to give solutions to problems first is wrong and should be corrected. Which I think is a very unhealthy way of framing the issue, people need to have empathy for how others communicate and meet them halfway. “This person didn’t comfort me how I would comfort them, I will now be angry at them” is not OK. It ignores the context of the fact that they did try and comfort you in their way which is worth something and also ignores the fact that if you try and comfort someone who likes solutions by engaging with feeling you will do just as bad a job. The person more engaged with emotions is not more correct by default there is no “correct” anyway. I think any long-term relationship that asks one or both of the people to fill a role that is defined by the other person’s expectations is destined to fail. There is inherent friction in acting a part you don’t understand that eventually leads to resentment.

              • daltotron@lemmy.world
                1·
                15 days ago

                Why is the person who is upset more valued in the discussion than the person who isn’t?

                I find this a lot, to be an assumption, and I think the assumption makes sense. It’s less that they are or aren’t valued more, but more that the person who isn’t upset is taken to be the reasonable one which will be more receptive to longwinded posts about what they should or shouldn’t do.

              • KombatWombat@lemmy.world
                11·
                15 days ago

                This is a great response that captured my feelings well. I’m not sure why the replier assumed the ex was initially angry, to me it just sounds like they were telling a story about something that happened to them that day. If I was describing this to a partner and they assumed it was traumatic for me, I would be perhaps a bit flattered by the concern, but mostly just confused. Because that is a significant overreaction to a common experience.

                A professional mechanic is going to know much more about taking care of cars than us, that’s what we pay them for. And it’s normal (and thoughtful) for them to give people advice that we may need to look into more later on. And if the partner kept thinking I would internalize feelings of inadequacy from these mundane experiences even after I corrected them, it would be both annoying and insulting. If anything, that would be patronizing.

                Also, if I told a story where I described not knowing something that would be useful in the future, and my partner did know about it, I would want them to offer to teach me about it. Accusing your partner of being manipulative just because they try to help you with a problem is both cynical and immature. I pity people who are so jaded as to see genuine offers of help as instead malicious, but I would encourage them to at least try to assume others are engaging in good faith until being given a reason to suspect otherwise.

              • dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world
                31·
                15 days ago

                Indeed. Everyone has a brain, but nobody fully understands how one works. Right now, science is in a dead heat to see who finishes first: unraveling the mysteries of the cosmos and existence itself, and human cognition.

            • dejected_warp_core@lemmy.world
              85·
              16 days ago

              Follow-up: The mechanic should have a brochure or boilerplate guide for basic auto care chores like measuring your tire/tyre wear. This sets up the power move of “we give this to ALL our customers”, thereby avoiding any call-outs and giving GP’s ex-girlfriend the cover she needed. Instead the mechanic was probably trying to be helpful, but wound up ruining GP’s day in the process by being unintentionally insensitive.

              Be a bro: don’t set other people’s partners off.

              • urbeker@lemmy.world
                7·
                15 days ago

                I think there was little chance it was actually about not knowing how to check tyre wear.

                Also, every tyre place I’ve ever been to has had how-to check tyre wear printed in huge posters on every surface available, it makes it easier for them to sell more tyres. This is on top of it being a requirement to get a driving license in my country.

            • GardenVarietyAnxiety@lemmy.world
              44·
              16 days ago

              This is really good advice. And like you said, it’s a lot of work, but it makes us grow a bit, too.

              That seems like awful grammar, lol. Hopefully it gets the point across.

      • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
        101·
        15 days ago

        “Being able to leave gender out of it just shows your privilege” etc etc. At least that’s the reaction I’ve seen online.

    • Hedup@lemm.eeEnglish
      193·
      16 days ago

      Let me mansplain to you what mansplaining actually means.

    • bamfic@lemmy.worldEnglish
      46·
      16 days ago

      an alternate reply would have been “that sucks, they just left you hanging like that and didnt offer to help or explain?”

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
      1256·
      16 days ago

      Her: I just got my car back from the garage. They told me to keep an eye on the tyre wear, but I don’t really know what that means or how to do it.

      @Luvs2Spuj: putting down video game controller and giving a big sigh I can show you how to do that if you like?

      Her: I don’t need you to mansplain things to me MAN KNOW CAR THING, WOMAN NO DO I’ll just look it up online.

      @Luvs2Spuj: FINE! IT’S NOT LIKE I HAVEN’T BEEN FIXING CARS FOR YEARS! GO AHEAD AND ASK SOME IDIOT ON TWITTER!

      Her: No reason to shout. I’ll ask you questions if I need your help.

      @Luvs2Spuj: I’M GOING TO POST ON THE INTERNET THAT YOU’RE BEING MEAN

      Her: That is your right as we live in a free society. I see you and hear you, and I respect your opinions. Later tonight, I’m sure we can make sweet romantic love to settle our difference.

      @Luvs2Spuj: All of this has me so worked up, I can’t even get hard anymore.

      Her: I’ll just pick up some Chad at a bar and bring him over so you can watch, like we normally do.

      @Luvs2Spuj: Thanks sweetie.

      Fin

  • Farid@startrek.website
    15315·
    16 days ago

    Here’s a lifehack:

    1. Quickly switch your gender to woman.
    2. Womansplain her everything that needs to be explained.
    3. (optional) Undo the gender switch.
  • danc4498@lemmy.worldEnglish
    62·
    16 days ago

    Lol, my girl doesn’t know the right context for the phrase “gaslighting” and I just have to accept it.

  • Kit@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    475·
    16 days ago

    One of the biggest and best lessons I’ve learned is that it’s OK for other people to be wrong. There’s few situations in personal life where it’s necessary to correct or educate others - they’ll figure it out eventually.

    • cumskin_genocide@lemm.ee
      528·
      16 days ago

      You have to let life live. Like in Star Trek with that prime detective shit. A long time ago I lived in an apartment complex and my neighbour would beat the ever living crap out of his gf. I heard her cry every single night. I just ignored it because she would eventually learn to leave the guy. After like 6 months I managed to move out and escape that place.

      • pewter@lemmy.world
        11·
        16 days ago

        I just ignored it because she would eventually learn to leave the guy.

        That won’t necessarily happen.

      • Smoogs@lemmy.world
        67·
        14 days ago

        Oh wow you poor thing. Your poor ears had to hear all that. You’re the tru victim. Good thing you got out of that tragic situation that you made all about you. You’re a psychopath.

          • KombatWombat@lemmy.world
            11·
            15 days ago

            I feel like I’m losing my mind sometimes how people assume the most absurd troll comments are sincere and real. They’ve kept up the bit in replies too.

            They agreed with the statement, then added an example of being a bystander to something clearly wrong where they chose not to interfere. As a result, the bad thing continued, and the commentor did not care so long as it stopped affecting them. It is really not hard to see the thinly-veiled analogy. And yet people point out the problematic nature of the story, likely after supporting the idea it is parodying.

  • vrek@programming.devEnglish
    391·
    16 days ago

    I was taught a long time ago a simple idea … Men hear a problem and try to solve it…”i don’t know x" ok let me teach you" or “I can’t get this thing to work” ok let me try if I can.

    Women on initial compliant some times just want to know that you know they are struggling. Instead of "let me teach you” you could say “I’m sure you will understand” or “I know it’s difficult but you got this”.

    Yes it varies by person some men prefer the latter and some women prefer the former. As with most things it’s up to you to know your partner and what they want…

    • noli@lemmy.zip
      32·
      16 days ago

      I don’t recall where I heard this advice but someone once told me that when he’s in this situation he asks his SO “do you want solutions or to vent?” Probably doesn’t work for everyone but I liked the idea

        • cRazi_man@lemm.ee
          11·
          16 days ago

          Presume they want to vent.

          Someone who wants to vent gets mad if you try to explain.

          Someone who wants and explanation won’t get mad if you talk to them if they want to vent.

          Take the safe bet everytime.

      • vrek@programming.devEnglish
        7·
        16 days ago

        Yup some idea. I think I heard it on Reddit but you put it succinctly.

        Anyone else reading this keep in mind this changes with partners and situations and maybe by day…without specific examples with lot of details it’s hard to tell. If you don’t know, ask kindly.

      • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.caEnglish
        5·
        16 days ago

        I’m pretty sure I’ve given this advice at some point on Reddit before.

        Personally I know my SO well enough to know when it’s just venting. I don’t usually need to ask anymore.

    • MystikIncarnate@lemmy.caEnglish
      82·
      16 days ago

      This is very true and an essential life skill of anyone who is in a long term relationship.

      Wait for them to directly ask for your help. Until then, be an empathetic and active listener.

      You’ll get some serious points this way.

      Asking questions is fine, for the most part (a part of active listening), just be sure they’re questions, not commands. Eg. (Primary complaint): " Mary was being a bitch today", bad reply “you should avoid her when she’s being a bitch”, same idea, but a better reply “did you try to avoid her to stay away from her bitchiness?” In the former example, you’re giving her a solution. In the latter, you’re asking if she tried that as a solution. The key difference is that in the former reply, it gives the assumption that she didn’t think of that, in the latter, you assume she tried and you want to know how that went, or why it wasn’t tried.

      The former, implying that they couldn’t, didn’t, or wouldn’t think of that solution, also further implies that they’re lacking the critical thinking to consider that solution. Which, from what I have gathered, is the root cause of displeasure from men’s “suggestions”.

      Your mileage may vary depending on where your wife/gf lands on the crazy/hot graph (mainly on the crazy axis).

    • chatokun@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      4·
      16 days ago

      I’m a problem solver by trade and in recreation (IT, games, etc), but I also complain sometimes without desiring a fix. Sometimes I know a way to solve it but am just complaining that it even needs to be solved, and sometimes I either want to share just because it’s interesting, or because it’s funny.

      Sometimes I’m just venting, and an actual fix won’t help my mood while venting. Like I will take the advice and apply it later, but for thus moment, I need to get my feelings out. I’m a cis* male.

      *(it’s been suggested I’m actually nonbinary or something similar due to my mild interest in gender fluidity, but I personally don’t identify that way, nor do I get bothered if referred to that way or by any gender).

    • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
      2·
      15 days ago

      Instead of "let me teach you” you could say “I’m sure you will understand” or “I know it’s difficult but you got this”.

      Especially the latter one can easily sound condescending. And then you’re in the shit again

      • vrek@programming.devEnglish
        1·
        15 days ago

        Yes, as I said it depends on you and your partner. Also the point is basically to say “I understand the struggle you are experiencing, here is some encouragement” without being a machine…

        As another user said in a better way…do you want to vent or do you want solutions? If vent recognize their pain and encourage them, if solutions try to help.

  • Shou@lemmy.world
    24·
    15 days ago

    If she didn’t understand what mansplaining is, it isn’t mansplaining when correcting her.

  • aaaaace@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    3918·
    16 days ago

    I have a term also: Fem-terrogating

    Are you new here? Where do you work? What do you do for work? Does that pay well? Are you married? Ad infinitum…

    I simply answer that I don’t want to man-splain things.

    • alekwithak@lemmy.world
      397·
      16 days ago

      Man-splaining isn’t any man explaining anything, it specifically refers to man’s tendency to assume women have very little knowledge and condescension while explaining. You can answer questions???

      I do like fem-terrogation though

      • aaaaace@lemmy.blahaj.zone
        714·
        16 days ago

        I think fem-terrogation is used to elicit specific info and the subject man may often not gather what is really being sought and why.

        If the desired info is given, great.

        If the wide-eyed probing questioning leads to bloviation on a pet subject and away from the sought data needed for mating informational purposes, then a splenetic term is applied to the subject.

        Thus it is likely that ND men are often categorized thusly, as well as trying the patience of innocent questioners who are merely trying to ascertain bank balances, salary, promotion potential, and other relevant info needed to determine if she is suddenly interested in his pet subjects.

      • cRazi_man@lemm.ee
        916·
        16 days ago

        You man-splained the idea of man-splaining in a thread about a meme about the same thing. I’ve lost track of where the ironic joke ended.