Oh no no, Israel are monsters whether they accept or not. You can’t kill over 10k children and purposefully try to create a famine and get away without that label.
Gaza needs to be “dehamasafied” a la Berlin 1945
If you think the current conflict hasn’t created more terrorists than it’s killed you are not thinking empathetically. If a nearby state killed your whole family and destroyed your home because some authoritarian regime you never voted for pissed them off and you could do nothing about it, would you really be less likely to want to take up arms against them? Give me a break.
The only solution is peace. The only way to get true peace is to give Palestine a proper state and freedom from occupation. Dismantle illegal settlements. Immediately release “administrative detainees” held without charge (aka hostages). In short, give Palestinians the same respect and rights as everybody else. You cannot bomb this problem out of existence.
Well peace, until Hamas has gathered more strength and attacks Israel again, right? How many months of peace do you think it will be before they’re firing rockets into Israel again? How many peaceful months until they launch another terrorist attack and kill 1000+ and kidnap 250?
The only solution is the dehamasification of Gaza. An international coalition overseeing the process, similar to post-war Germany. Otherwise this back and forth will continue forever
Well peace, until Hamas has gathered more strength and attacks Israel again, right?
No, by peace I mean peace. Like the ordinary meaning of the word.
How many months of peace do you think it will be before they’re firing rockets into Israel again?
Maybe if Israel tries not oppressing people? Wild idea I know. Not a defence of their actions, but if you abuse a people for long enough it’s not exactly unexpected is it? My previous comment is full of ideas that would make this much less likely to happen. It could be stopped entirely with diplomacy, although without addressing the serious systemic inequalities it would probably flare up again, yeah.
The only solution is the dehamasification of Gaza.
How do you achieve this? Do you think the current conflict is going to plan in this regard?
You can’t have perpetual peace in this ongoing conflict man. Each side wants the complete destruction of the other. We can’t just say “be peaceful” and walk away and know that they will never attack each other again.
In order to do this, an international coalition needs to physically occupy and de-radicalize the radical factions. Like post-war Germany, this won’t be some overnight fix. It will take immense resources and effort. Is that going to happen?
“Dehamasification” isn’t bombing and killing all of Hamas, so no I don’t think the current situation is being successful. It’s a long term project that will likely take decades, with an international occupation force overseeing it.
But this specific conflict does not end until Hamas surrenders. Israel will not stop until that end is met. We can argue all day about the morality of that, but it doesn’t matter, that’s the reality of the facts on the ground at this moment
Each side wants the complete destruction of the other.
I don’t think this is true. Hamas’ charter supports a two state solution, for example.
We can’t just say “be peaceful” and walk away and know that they will never attack each other again.
No shit. Did you even read what I wrote?
You can’t have perpetual peace in this ongoing conflict man
You get peace by addressing the issues that created the conflict. Is this not obvious? It’s ongoing because of shit like the illegal settlements and the blockade of Gaza. The land was stolen but agreements can be reached to split it, if the sides are willing. Of course they tried with the Oslo Accords and it didn’t go so well (eg the illegal settlements yet again). Calling it a perpetual conflict is giving up. We need a peace agreement which is actually enforced.
“Dehamasification” isn’t bombing and killing all of Hamas, so no I don’t think the current situation is being successful. It’s a long term project that will likely take decades, with an international occupation force overseeing it.
But yeah fair enough. So if this is not working we need an immediate ceasefire. And yeah I agree it will take time.
But this specific conflict does not end until Hamas surrenders. Israel will not stop until that end is met. We can argue all day about the morality of that, but it doesn’t matter, that’s the reality of the facts on the ground at this moment
The morality does matter. Israel is not a force of nature. What they are doing is wrong and we need an international coalition to make them stop. “The reality of the facts on the ground” is that innocent people are dying every day and Israel is making that happen. And Hamas kicked off this particular round of fighting so they also get some of the blame.
Edit, missed this part:
Like post-war Germany, this won’t be some overnight fix. It will take immense resources and effort. Is that going to happen?
It should. I don’t know how this will end but we can’t just allow this to continue. Nobody wants another October 7th and nobody wants another 8 months of livestreamed war crimes in response
Right my whole point is I think we all know, or think, what needs to happen to achieve long term peace. But, will any of it happen? We can’t just march an international coalition into Israel and begin occupying. We can’t just force Israel to stop their campaign and release all prisoners. So what is the real solution? It’s far more complicated than just “Israel and Hamas bad, they should be peaceful will each other”
As much as we all want to see violence end, Israel is a sovereign nation with complex relationships with foreign powers. There isn’t some easy street solution to long term peace, because whatever that solution is, needs to be accepted by them. And their current political establishment don’t want to just release prisoners and give Palestine statehood.
That’s why I said complete surrender of Hamas is the only way we even begin having conversations about long term peace. Israel will accept nothing less at this point
Well excuse me if I don’t think we should all bend over and do what Israel wants. Why should being an obstinate cunt about it mean you get your way? Sanction, threaten, UNSC resolutions, and actually enforce it.
We can’t just force Israel to stop their campaign and release all prisoners.
We could fucking try. Can you imagine making this type of argument about the holocaust? Well you know guys, we all hate the genocide but Hitler really wants to keep killing jews so we have to work with him on that.
It’s far more complicated than just “Israel and Hamas bad, they should be peaceful will each other”
Obviously. This straw man is pointless. But when I talk about dismantling illegal settlements, Palestinian statehood and freedom, you just ignore that? Why? There are many practical steps I have suggested and many others that people with actual expertise could suggest.
The reason why Germany was able to be denazified was because the Allied powers bombed them into submission, and then killed anyone with ties to the party. It’s all based on who can bring the most pain upon the other. That’s why this solution goes through Israel, unless we want to bomb them into submission. They will not respond to other pressure
That’s exactly what Israel is trying to do to Hamas right now. Bomb them into submission and then kill anyone left over who had ties to them.
I ignore the statehood/settlements stuff because Israel will never do it. It’s pointless to sit here and say “well they should just give Hamas everything they want” because they will not. They are winning the war from their perspective, so they’ll just keep bombing and killing until they get what they want. Say it’s horrible and terrible all you want, it will not change their perspective. To them, Hamas is Nazi Germany and they are the Allies. They’ll win by killing everyone if they have to.
The only TRUE solution is complete Hamas surrender. And then options like statehood are back on the table. Until then, it will just be bombing and killing
I don’t care what Israel wants. Like I said, Hitler wanted to keep killing Jews - should we have worked with him? Should we have let him continue? You point out that we bombed them into submission but somehow don’t support this solution with Israel’s unreasonable demands, why?
I don’t think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.
It’s pointless to sit here and say “well they should just give Hamas everything they want” because they will not.
First off. Negotiations don’t work that way. Both sides must make concessions. Of course we shouldn’t give Hamas everything they want.
Second, why do you seem to think it’s ok that we give Israel everything they want? Just because they’re currently winning thanks to US and generally western weapons and backing?
Oh no no, Israel are monsters whether they accept or not. You can’t kill over 10k children and purposefully try to create a famine and get away without that label.
If you think the current conflict hasn’t created more terrorists than it’s killed you are not thinking empathetically. If a nearby state killed your whole family and destroyed your home because some authoritarian regime you never voted for pissed them off and you could do nothing about it, would you really be less likely to want to take up arms against them? Give me a break.
The only solution is peace. The only way to get true peace is to give Palestine a proper state and freedom from occupation. Dismantle illegal settlements. Immediately release “administrative detainees” held without charge (aka hostages). In short, give Palestinians the same respect and rights as everybody else. You cannot bomb this problem out of existence.
Well peace, until Hamas has gathered more strength and attacks Israel again, right? How many months of peace do you think it will be before they’re firing rockets into Israel again? How many peaceful months until they launch another terrorist attack and kill 1000+ and kidnap 250?
The only solution is the dehamasification of Gaza. An international coalition overseeing the process, similar to post-war Germany. Otherwise this back and forth will continue forever
No, by peace I mean peace. Like the ordinary meaning of the word.
Maybe if Israel tries not oppressing people? Wild idea I know. Not a defence of their actions, but if you abuse a people for long enough it’s not exactly unexpected is it? My previous comment is full of ideas that would make this much less likely to happen. It could be stopped entirely with diplomacy, although without addressing the serious systemic inequalities it would probably flare up again, yeah.
How do you achieve this? Do you think the current conflict is going to plan in this regard?
You can’t have perpetual peace in this ongoing conflict man. Each side wants the complete destruction of the other. We can’t just say “be peaceful” and walk away and know that they will never attack each other again.
In order to do this, an international coalition needs to physically occupy and de-radicalize the radical factions. Like post-war Germany, this won’t be some overnight fix. It will take immense resources and effort. Is that going to happen?
“Dehamasification” isn’t bombing and killing all of Hamas, so no I don’t think the current situation is being successful. It’s a long term project that will likely take decades, with an international occupation force overseeing it.
But this specific conflict does not end until Hamas surrenders. Israel will not stop until that end is met. We can argue all day about the morality of that, but it doesn’t matter, that’s the reality of the facts on the ground at this moment
I don’t think this is true. Hamas’ charter supports a two state solution, for example.
No shit. Did you even read what I wrote?
You get peace by addressing the issues that created the conflict. Is this not obvious? It’s ongoing because of shit like the illegal settlements and the blockade of Gaza. The land was stolen but agreements can be reached to split it, if the sides are willing. Of course they tried with the Oslo Accords and it didn’t go so well (eg the illegal settlements yet again). Calling it a perpetual conflict is giving up. We need a peace agreement which is actually enforced.
But yeah fair enough. So if this is not working we need an immediate ceasefire. And yeah I agree it will take time.
The morality does matter. Israel is not a force of nature. What they are doing is wrong and we need an international coalition to make them stop. “The reality of the facts on the ground” is that innocent people are dying every day and Israel is making that happen. And Hamas kicked off this particular round of fighting so they also get some of the blame.
Edit, missed this part:
It should. I don’t know how this will end but we can’t just allow this to continue. Nobody wants another October 7th and nobody wants another 8 months of livestreamed war crimes in response
Right my whole point is I think we all know, or think, what needs to happen to achieve long term peace. But, will any of it happen? We can’t just march an international coalition into Israel and begin occupying. We can’t just force Israel to stop their campaign and release all prisoners. So what is the real solution? It’s far more complicated than just “Israel and Hamas bad, they should be peaceful will each other”
As much as we all want to see violence end, Israel is a sovereign nation with complex relationships with foreign powers. There isn’t some easy street solution to long term peace, because whatever that solution is, needs to be accepted by them. And their current political establishment don’t want to just release prisoners and give Palestine statehood.
That’s why I said complete surrender of Hamas is the only way we even begin having conversations about long term peace. Israel will accept nothing less at this point
Well excuse me if I don’t think we should all bend over and do what Israel wants. Why should being an obstinate cunt about it mean you get your way? Sanction, threaten, UNSC resolutions, and actually enforce it.
We could fucking try. Can you imagine making this type of argument about the holocaust? Well you know guys, we all hate the genocide but Hitler really wants to keep killing jews so we have to work with him on that.
Obviously. This straw man is pointless. But when I talk about dismantling illegal settlements, Palestinian statehood and freedom, you just ignore that? Why? There are many practical steps I have suggested and many others that people with actual expertise could suggest.
The reason why Germany was able to be denazified was because the Allied powers bombed them into submission, and then killed anyone with ties to the party. It’s all based on who can bring the most pain upon the other. That’s why this solution goes through Israel, unless we want to bomb them into submission. They will not respond to other pressure
That’s exactly what Israel is trying to do to Hamas right now. Bomb them into submission and then kill anyone left over who had ties to them.
I ignore the statehood/settlements stuff because Israel will never do it. It’s pointless to sit here and say “well they should just give Hamas everything they want” because they will not. They are winning the war from their perspective, so they’ll just keep bombing and killing until they get what they want. Say it’s horrible and terrible all you want, it will not change their perspective. To them, Hamas is Nazi Germany and they are the Allies. They’ll win by killing everyone if they have to.
The only TRUE solution is complete Hamas surrender. And then options like statehood are back on the table. Until then, it will just be bombing and killing
I don’t care what Israel wants. Like I said, Hitler wanted to keep killing Jews - should we have worked with him? Should we have let him continue? You point out that we bombed them into submission but somehow don’t support this solution with Israel’s unreasonable demands, why?
I don’t think boots on the ground would be necessary if we actually sanctioned Israel, stopped providing arms, made them a pariah. But if it came to it and that was the only way to prevent more bloodshed, then we should do it.
First off. Negotiations don’t work that way. Both sides must make concessions. Of course we shouldn’t give Hamas everything they want.
Second, why do you seem to think it’s ok that we give Israel everything they want? Just because they’re currently winning thanks to US and generally western weapons and backing?