I mean… with all the negativity in this thread, every single person here is consenting to be alive every single day. While there are a number who choose an early exit, the vast vast statistical majority overwhelmingly consent to live another day every day. With such stats I feel like it’s fine to assume the default status is consent in this context.
Plus, speaking of morals, we’re just dumb little apes. You give us too much credit if you think we can fight the greatest biological urge of all life over something we’ve completely invented in our minds : morals, and the morals of the unborn is like double hypothetical.
Death is scary, not wanting to die is not the same as wanting to live. I would’ve rather not been born during about 1/3 of my life, it’s only now that I’m finding any substantial (though inconsistent) enjoyment from life.
"by waking up today, you consent to continue existing, and acknowledge the suffering it brings. Do you wish to continue?”
[yes] [yes]
no the fuck I do not. If I had a magicall button that would let me stop existing without the risk of damaging my neck and spending the rest of my life incapacitated but alive, and it didn’t cause trauma to the people around me, I would have pressed it fucking years ago.
vast statistical majority overwhelmingly consent to live
The child can still consider taking the one-way exit as soon as it is able to make such considerations and thereby gets a choice.
You could ask in a similar manner:
Wouldn’t it be immoral to disallow this decision making process by leaving the child no choice by not having it?
Asking for consent of an unborn is paradoxial and inherently impossible. It’s almost like asking a plant whether it consents into being planted and eaten afterwards. It has no agency. Is it immoral though to plant it and eat it anyway?
Having a child is similar. Get it, let it grow and develop its agency. Then it can decide for itself.
So the answer boils down to kill yourself when you turn 18 bud? That seems like incredibly callous and unnecessary pain for all involved.
Consent 101: If you’re unsure about whether or not someone would consent, the answer is no. And since we can’t ask the unborn, people who don’t want kids assume the answer is no.
That seems like incredibly callous and unnecessary pain for all involved.
Which is - at least to some extent - a culturally formed perception. We know cultures where suicide was not frowned upon nor was seen as an inherently bad thing. For example:
Harakiri / Seppuku: ritual suicide commited by Samurais (and later officers during WWII) (lazily taken from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku ) as a way to restore or uphold their or their families’ honour.
Ättestupa, sites with cliff-like rock formations in Sweden where old people threw themselves off in order to not burden their community. (There are quite a number of examples regarding such kinds of senicides in different cultures. Currently this is also a topic regarding assisted suicide for (old) people who are severly ill with no realistic hopes of improvement.)
This proves that it can be possible to embrace such decisions of mature adolescents, be it for life or against it.
Consent 101: If you’re unsure about whether or not someone would consent, the answer is no. And since we can’t ask the unborn, people who don’t want kids assume the answer is no.
We can turn this easily around: If you’re unsure whether someone would consent to not being born, the answer is no and therefore they should be born.
But more importantly, to ask that question at all is already built on a erroneous premise, in my opinion: The unborn child has no sufficient agency to form an opinion about this question. It is therefore pointless to ask it. The ability to make such decisions comes with time and maturity of the child. Until this level is reached, you could also deny plants and even stones their existence because you are not able to ask them whether they want to exist at all. They have about the same level of agency as an unborn child.
If you’re unsure wether someone would consent to not having sex, the answer is no. Therefore… If someone is unconscious it’s okay, or even morally necessary, to have sex with them in order to not deprive them of a decision they don’t have the agency to make themselves?
Put like that, it’s of course not a conclusion which feels right. Which is interesting and which I would explain by the “greater goods” which are relevant in such considerations.
In your example, the greater good is an autonomy about one’s own body and what happens to it in presence of other people. An issue which we’ve developed understanding and respect for one’s individual will.
In the context of natalism however, there are different goods at play depending on how you look at them:
Antinatalism: “creating new humans is wrong, because they have guaranteed suffering. Allowing that will cause unneccessary suffering.”
Pronatalism: “Creating new humans is okay, because their life can be joyful (and/or brings me joy). Denying that robs the possible being from this experience.” (Depending on who you ask, it might not even be necessary to be joyful, as the experience of life is already seen as valuable by itself.)
In other words: Antinatalism’s greater good: preventing suffering. Pronatalisms greater good: allowing joy and the experience of life.
But again, asking for consent here is pointless, as I’ve detailed before. If you want to have sex with someone who is unconcious, they are able to form on opinion about that before the incident, possibly during the incident and directly after the incident. In other words, they have agency about this. With unborns it is different: they don’t exist and have no agency prior or during the incident of being born. They develop this ability during their childhood. Then you can ask. Without such a capacity I don’t see any value in moral evaluations. Because to me, this is currently almost similar to asking a stone whether it wants to exist in this universe.
Yeah I just don’t think having a kid under the premise “well you can kill yourself later” is a really great argument. And they’re not really letting us kill ourselves humanely anyway - Medical Assistance in Dying laws are still incredibly restrictive and they actively prosecute people who sell alternatives.
Just because I find joy in life I can’t force that on other people. We all have different perspectives.
I look at it like joy is not guaranteed. The only thing that is guaranteed through life is suffering and death.
I don’t need to have kids for survival and we have too many people already. Why guarantee suffering in another person.
And they’re not really letting us kill ourselves humanely anyway - Medical Assistance in Dying laws are still incredibly restrictive and they actively prosecute people who sell alternatives.
Which is an important practial limiation of course. But I’m currently discussing this on the level of the underlying ethical principle, less on the level of practical implications, because the latter could possibly be changed by forming an appropriate mindset in our society.
Just because I find joy in life I can’t force that on other people. We all have different perspectives.
I look at it like joy is not guaranteed. The only thing that is guaranteed through life is suffering and death.
[…] Why guarantee suffering in another person.
Sure, but would it be equally okay to deny someone their shot at joy? Even without (much) joy, some might see the suffering as part of their journey, a part of the experience of life which they could still prefer to not being born at all. We never know until we can ask and expect an answer to that question.
I don’t need to have kids for survival and we have too many people already.
And it’s totally okay for me if these are your reasons for not having children. I agree with a multitude of reasons why someone want’s to be childless. So I hope you don’t get me wrong here. I don’t give a fuck whether someone wants or doesn’t want children. It’s their life and their decision regardless of their reasons. I just find the topic of natalism interesting from a philosophical point of view.
Death is far scarier than having never been born. I went through sooooo much torment thinking about death and if I should make today the day. I have PTSD from years of that. This is not a fair exit.
I understand that. It’s a very scary feeling for most. (btw: If you really feel like this damaged you, I hope you’ve considered therapy.)
However, if someone decides they don’t want to be alive (and we can ensure that this decision is made of “sound mind” (whatever that might look like)) I can imagine that they might get used to the idea of death and ending it.
Ignore or assume we fix socioeconomics, environment, etc.;
Is having a child moral given the child cannot consent to being born?
(Not offering any opinion or trying to lead towards any answer)
I mean… with all the negativity in this thread, every single person here is consenting to be alive every single day. While there are a number who choose an early exit, the vast vast statistical majority overwhelmingly consent to live another day every day. With such stats I feel like it’s fine to assume the default status is consent in this context.
Plus, speaking of morals, we’re just dumb little apes. You give us too much credit if you think we can fight the greatest biological urge of all life over something we’ve completely invented in our minds : morals, and the morals of the unborn is like double hypothetical.
Death is scary, not wanting to die is not the same as wanting to live. I would’ve rather not been born during about 1/3 of my life, it’s only now that I’m finding any substantial (though inconsistent) enjoyment from life.
"by waking up today, you consent to continue existing, and acknowledge the suffering it brings. Do you wish to continue?”
[yes] [yes]
no the fuck I do not. If I had a magicall button that would let me stop existing without the risk of damaging my neck and spending the rest of my life incapacitated but alive, and it didn’t cause trauma to the people around me, I would have pressed it fucking years ago.
what disgusting mental acrobatics
The child can still consider taking the one-way exit as soon as it is able to make such considerations and thereby gets a choice.
You could ask in a similar manner:
Wouldn’t it be immoral to disallow this decision making process by leaving the child no choice by not having it?
Asking for consent of an unborn is paradoxial and inherently impossible. It’s almost like asking a plant whether it consents into being planted and eaten afterwards. It has no agency. Is it immoral though to plant it and eat it anyway?
Having a child is similar. Get it, let it grow and develop its agency. Then it can decide for itself.
So the answer boils down to kill yourself when you turn 18 bud? That seems like incredibly callous and unnecessary pain for all involved.
Consent 101: If you’re unsure about whether or not someone would consent, the answer is no. And since we can’t ask the unborn, people who don’t want kids assume the answer is no.
Which is - at least to some extent - a culturally formed perception. We know cultures where suicide was not frowned upon nor was seen as an inherently bad thing. For example:
This proves that it can be possible to embrace such decisions of mature adolescents, be it for life or against it.
We can turn this easily around: If you’re unsure whether someone would consent to not being born, the answer is no and therefore they should be born.
But more importantly, to ask that question at all is already built on a erroneous premise, in my opinion: The unborn child has no sufficient agency to form an opinion about this question. It is therefore pointless to ask it. The ability to make such decisions comes with time and maturity of the child. Until this level is reached, you could also deny plants and even stones their existence because you are not able to ask them whether they want to exist at all. They have about the same level of agency as an unborn child.
If you’re unsure wether someone would consent to not having sex, the answer is no. Therefore… If someone is unconscious it’s okay, or even morally necessary, to have sex with them in order to not deprive them of a decision they don’t have the agency to make themselves?
Put like that, it’s of course not a conclusion which feels right. Which is interesting and which I would explain by the “greater goods” which are relevant in such considerations.
In your example, the greater good is an autonomy about one’s own body and what happens to it in presence of other people. An issue which we’ve developed understanding and respect for one’s individual will.
In the context of natalism however, there are different goods at play depending on how you look at them:
Antinatalism: “creating new humans is wrong, because they have guaranteed suffering. Allowing that will cause unneccessary suffering.”
Pronatalism: “Creating new humans is okay, because their life can be joyful (and/or brings me joy). Denying that robs the possible being from this experience.” (Depending on who you ask, it might not even be necessary to be joyful, as the experience of life is already seen as valuable by itself.)
In other words: Antinatalism’s greater good: preventing suffering. Pronatalisms greater good: allowing joy and the experience of life.
But again, asking for consent here is pointless, as I’ve detailed before. If you want to have sex with someone who is unconcious, they are able to form on opinion about that before the incident, possibly during the incident and directly after the incident. In other words, they have agency about this. With unborns it is different: they don’t exist and have no agency prior or during the incident of being born. They develop this ability during their childhood. Then you can ask. Without such a capacity I don’t see any value in moral evaluations. Because to me, this is currently almost similar to asking a stone whether it wants to exist in this universe.
Yeah I just don’t think having a kid under the premise “well you can kill yourself later” is a really great argument. And they’re not really letting us kill ourselves humanely anyway - Medical Assistance in Dying laws are still incredibly restrictive and they actively prosecute people who sell alternatives.
Just because I find joy in life I can’t force that on other people. We all have different perspectives.
I look at it like joy is not guaranteed. The only thing that is guaranteed through life is suffering and death.
I don’t need to have kids for survival and we have too many people already. Why guarantee suffering in another person.
Which is an important practial limiation of course. But I’m currently discussing this on the level of the underlying ethical principle, less on the level of practical implications, because the latter could possibly be changed by forming an appropriate mindset in our society.
Sure, but would it be equally okay to deny someone their shot at joy? Even without (much) joy, some might see the suffering as part of their journey, a part of the experience of life which they could still prefer to not being born at all. We never know until we can ask and expect an answer to that question.
And it’s totally okay for me if these are your reasons for not having children. I agree with a multitude of reasons why someone want’s to be childless. So I hope you don’t get me wrong here. I don’t give a fuck whether someone wants or doesn’t want children. It’s their life and their decision regardless of their reasons. I just find the topic of natalism interesting from a philosophical point of view.
And that’s why you should never pull an unconscious person out of a fire. QED.
I don’t know what that is supposed to mean. In the Canadian medical system consent to save an unconscious person’s life is pretty automatic.
We’re talking about consent to opt in to be born, which is completely different.
Death is far scarier than having never been born. I went through sooooo much torment thinking about death and if I should make today the day. I have PTSD from years of that. This is not a fair exit.
I understand that. It’s a very scary feeling for most. (btw: If you really feel like this damaged you, I hope you’ve considered therapy.)
However, if someone decides they don’t want to be alive (and we can ensure that this decision is made of “sound mind” (whatever that might look like)) I can imagine that they might get used to the idea of death and ending it.
I got used to the feeling, but it never stopped hurting. I’m a lot better now, but still need to address the lingering effects.
I would say it isn’t