This is persuasion done correctly. “I understand how you are feeling. Israel’s crimes and US support of them should be important to all of us. You aren’t wrong to have your reservations, and I agree change is needed. That being said, please let me tell you why it’s important to participate.” No insults, readily apparent empathy, and a sound argument.
People have been doing exactly that since back when we were trying to somehow get Biden to win.
The message isn’t the thing. It is the speaker. Because even the tankiest of tankies are going to be wary of insulting Sanders in front of their audience. And this is why celebrity endorsements matter.
Edit: I’m changing my stance on how common this is after a few hours looking at top election posts and comments across boards. The abuse definitely exists, but in most places it WASN’T at the top. While “vote bullying” happens, I was wrong about how much support it gets. I’m happy to be wrong and glad to see that people usually are pretty decent about presenting their arguments. I still think OP’s article shows how people should be convinced.
I get what you are saying and half-agree.
Where I respectfully disagree is that people have always been this reasonable.By writing “this is how it’s done correctly, with respect and logic” I’m juxtaposing Sen. Sander’s approach vs. “vote with us or else you’re -insert insult here-” posts, comments, and memes. I’ve seentons ofsome attempts to dehumanize or discredit critics of Biden/Harris/Dems on Lemmy and other platforms. You are right thatsomemost have always tried to be empathetic and civil.I also agree high-profile endorsements matter. That bugs me a little bit because I think arguments should succeed or fail on their own merits and not reputation. But I know I’m a consciously “have no heroes” person because I believe everyone is fallible. I definitely have people I respect a lot, but no one that I’ll agree with all the time.
Eh. It started respectful, but dealing with the same tired “never genocide” canvassing of every single election thread gets old. And the people making those arguments know exactly what they’re doing.
Do you expect the opposition to fall over themselves to be respectful and accommodating while the other is not playing by the same rules?
Does that remind you of something the Dems were very heavily criticized for doing in the recent past?
The same canvassing from the same accounts, no less.
Does anybody miss Linkerbaan?
Me either.
I had honestly forgotten Linkerbaan existed. But now that you mention it, it’s been quite noticeably less toxic on Lemmy for some time. Linkerbaan’s participation was just complete bad faith. UniversalMonk, too.
There are plenty of other personalities on here who are more than willing to accuse everyone else of being “genocide-loving centrists.” So the community has lost nothing.
Did they finally get banned or just quit? I never see them post shit anymore. Absolutely a propagandist and I’m surprised more people didn’t see it months ago
Banned around a month ago.
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I expect libs to be respectful and accommodating to the left… And come out swinging against the right… What irritates me is when the libs take the left for granted and continuously move right on issues to try and scrape more shit off Trump’s boots
I do not respect the self identified “leftists” that do nothing but make demands and then move the goalposts.
You expect libs to be respectful, yet give no respect yourself.
Check you privilege. Your single issue voting is throwing minorities and women under the bus.
I do not respect that.
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Demanding that Dems represent us if they want our vote is not disrespectful… Demanding that the left support you while spitting in their faces is disrespectful
You voting for the establishment is throwing foreigners under the bus. America first, am I right?
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Eh. It started respectful
It absolutely did not, because the center only respects the right.
Generally speaking, people AREN’T saying “vote with us or else you’re a piece of shit” to anyone who is (good faith) complaining about Biden’s horrendous record on genocide and Kamala being unlikely to be much better. We almost always point out "Yeah… it sucks. But do you think trump will be any better? and get responses along the lines of “WELL I WON’T VOTE FOR GENOCIDE!! THAT IS MY LINE!!!”
It has nothing to do with the way the message was said and pretending otherwise is an active insult to everyone who gives a shit.
The only reason this MIGHT make a dent is because it is Bernie Sanders. The guy who opened a lot of people’s minds to the reality that there is something better than late stage capitalism and beltway liberals.
people AREN’T saying “vote with us or else you’re a piece of shit”
Lemmy is doing precisely this, in this very thread, and has been doing this in literally every thread where this comes up since 2023. The issue that needs to be addressed is whether or not “Trump worse” is working as a strategy. What Bernie is saying here isn’t new, and maybe he’s saying it better, or its better coming from him than other surrogates. ymmv. I would argue you’ve already captured all the votes you can get using this approach. Now what about the votes you aren’t getting with the argument “Trump worse”?
I think without a pivot on this Harris is leaving the easiest 1-3% of voters to get on the table. And they’ve been there since the last day of the convention, where Harris conveniently showed Arab-americans the exit rather than the podium. Its a small group, but its more than sufficient to be a deal breaker in this election. You can’t force them to go for Harris, and no amount of telling them they have to has changed their minds.
Going forwards, how do you get these voters to vote for Harris?
I am an AAPI. I already know no candidate gives a shit about me. Hell, it says something when frigging Yang seemed palatable for like… five minutes. And with the way geopolitics is shaking up? If you thought the anti-asian hate was bad during the lockdown parts of COVID, just wait until we are in a cold war gone lukewarm against china like we are with russia.
And that is why a lot of AAPI folk kind of go right wing. They, like their parents, decide it is easier to try to ingratiate themselves wit hteh white supremacists than to show solidarity. But the rest of us? We rapidly learn that there IS no solidarity with us because we are “model minorities” and get told to shut the fuck up when more important minorities are being discriminated against.
But also? That isn’t the only issue. There are AAPI women and AAPI lgbtq+ folk and so forth. And thus, you actually look at the issues and vote in your interests even if neither party really gives a shit. Because you have more than one issue (and, even that, one party is still a lot less shitty)
So if “Well… neither is great but one is a whole lot worse in these very concrete ways” isn’t working?
You get a celebrity influencer to say it. Like Sanders.
We rapidly learn that there IS no solidarity with us because we are “model minorities” and get told to shut the fuck up when more important minorities are being discriminated against.
Its like the trolley problem exemplified. Blue-dog democrats be like “well someone needs to get crushed under the weight of this thing”.
Yes…that’s the point of the trolley problem. Someone does get crushed.
Lemmy is doing precisely this, in this very thread, and has been doing this in literally every thread where this comes up since 2023.
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
“I’ve never seen liberals act like assholes, so it must actually be the leftists who are assholes”
Edit: I’m adjusting my stance because while I can find abuse in many threads most of the time it WASN’T in the top comments. Seeing what actually makes it to the top proves I was wrong and I won’t cherry-pick comments further down to argue I’m “right”. “Vote bullying” exists so I’m not deleting, but when I looked for other examples I found that most of the time upvotes are for reasonable folks.
I’ll give one high-ish profile example that illustrates what I’m talking about: /c/politicalmemes has nearly 6k users, which is fairly big for Lemmy. In the last 6 months, the #3 top post with 1.91k upvotes is about how not voting because you feel there’s no good choice means Republicans win and not seeing that means “you have a problem”. The top comment in that post is about how people saying Biden isn’t doing enough are propagandists. The #3 top comment literally tells dissenters to “do a lot more shutting the fuck up”.
As I’ve said from the beginning: it’s not universal, but it shows up regularly enough to make me appreciate Bernie’s approach.
The meme sub. Where people intentionally try to make jokes and antagonize each other?
Edit: While I stand by what I say below about the sentiments being genuine, when actually reading top comments across boards - in most threads the top comments are pretty civil and reasonable. I was wrong.
I believe the meme and comments actually reflect the views of the people posting them. Perhaps I’m wrong, but the sentiments come across as very genuine and so I don’t think it’s accurate to dismiss them as “just joking”. I also picked it because I remembered it and so it was faster than trawling through other threads for examples.
And this is why celebrity endorsements matter.
Good call. When your “role model” (for lack of a better term) takes a position on something, it tends to give it more credence to the target audience.
I have a great deal of respect for Bernie Sanders, so his words carry some weight with me. He is being a voice of reason.
I’ve seen threads from only hours ago where lemmygrad denizens were shitting on Sanders as far too conservative. Like… honestly, at this point, I think many people in that crowd are just leaning into being agitprop trolls for t3h lulz, or something like that. It’s deeply stupid imo, but they seem to not care.
The tankies on Lemmy are not the progressives that Sanders is speaking to.
Those progressives feel disenfranchised by Democrats and will rightly drop support for the “moderate” candidate next time there’s an election where the alternative is not a mask-off fascist. Some of them might do it this year, unfortunately. Maybe this is their first time voting, and they’re struggling with settling for the lesser evil. Maybe they’ve been doing it all their life and they’re tired of it. They’re the ones Sanders is trying to persuade.
Tankies, on the other hand, don’t actually give a fuck about their own moral arguments. They would be in Gaza murdering Palestinians with their own hands if they thought it would accelerate the collapse of the US and the rest of the western world. But why get your hands dirty when Trump can drop MOABs because of “the power” or whatever dumb shit he’s going to do. They hope Trump wins so that China and Russia will need to rescue the world from a fascist dictator in the US. They’re hoping for a new world order - like what the allies did after they defeated nazi germany.
It’s easy to confuse them around here because there are so many tankies among the well-meaning progressives getting swept up by tankie opportunism.
This is where I’m at. I’ve been open that I’m voting for Kamala, but people are literally posting that she has “no scandals” unironically, and will call you a Russian bot or a Trump supporter for disputing that. It’s absolutely unhinged, and does nothing for her election.
Lots of bandying about the term “BlueMAGA” too, which is just… so, so dumb. That’s not what this is. That’s not what anyone is saying. The only point I’ve been trying to make to those people is that if you don’t want to have a fascist takeover in the US, your one and only one option is to vote for Harris. I hate that our system works that way, but it does, and it’s not changing in a week. Pretending we’re not subject to the constraints of the electoral system we exist in is a recipe for defeat - and again, a fascist takeover.
And your one point is factually incorrect for a large majority of Americans. If you live in any number of non swings states you can safely vote against harris via a 3rd party. Dont worry the lemmings like yourself before reading this post will still give her the win.
The only place your statement would be remotely true is on swing states. And at that point I put the blame squarely on harris. 🤷 Tis gonna be a shit show and she has no one to blame but herself.
There are many shades of tankies.
The hardcore Hasan fans (and, probably Hasan himself) are generally good folk with strong leftist ideals who drink a bit too much of the kool-aid and have a tendency to be useful idiots who spew blatant pro-russian propaganda (remember the first few days of the war in Ukraine? I sure do). But when someone they know/“know” cares about them is saying something? They listen.
Hexbear and lemmygrad are full of the kind of tankies who manipulate THOSE tankies. The ones who are gleeful to spew pro-russian propaganda because it proves they are REALLY leftist… or because they are literally paid to do so.
Nah it’s just america’s center being extremely right-wing.
Sanders is a SINO according to the tankies, and plenty of commenters have trashed him here the other times this argument has been posted.
Sanders In Name Only?
Socialist. There are left wingers who have no shame adopting the right wing playbook.
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People have been doing exactly that since back when we were trying to somehow get Biden to win.
No. Centrists have been screaming that anyone who has the slightest misgivings about their genocide is a trumpist russian shill bot child. There has been no understanding whatsoever because centrists cannot fathom disliking genocide.
So they’re abstaining from any chance of making the plight of the Palestinians better because someone called them names? Can you elaborate a bit? I’m (relatively) new to this side of the “aisle”.
Do you want their votes, or do you want to feel morally superior while still supporting a genocide?
Sorry neighbor, I think you responded to me by mistake. My question was:
So they’re abstaining from any chance of making the plight of the Palestinians better because someone called them names?
I’m not the one asking for votes.
Bernie endorsed Hillary too. Fat lot that did. My progressive friend still wrote his name in on the ballot.
Luckily my friend is done fucking around. But seems like a lot of the “leftist” vocal minority here on Lemmy want the rest of us to pay the “find out” tab for them again.
Can’t wait to see this post and comments screenshotted on hexbear 🍿
Pfft.
Just had someone tell me that Bernie is too old and can’t think any more.
They just want an excuse to get noticed and pretend to be badass.
I really wish the USA was just seeing the end of a double-term Bernie presidency. I’m not dumb enough to pretend that it would have all been roses and prosperity (especially with the pandemic), but missing the setbacks of that 1st Trump presidency alone would have been pretty great. I -think- I’d prefer a younger president, but if an older president had to be chosen then Bernie seems articulate and compassionate.
Someone downvoted you for wanting to have seen a Bernie Presidency.
I don’t have words for these people.
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Good im glad you see how foolish you were being.
I love Bernie. Clearest speaker ever
Finally! Not the video link! Thank you!
That was my bad. Thank you for everything you do!
AOC had a similar response on Pod Save America.
You win political influence by being a crucial part of a win. You lose political influence if your political opponents are in office. The best chance to have your voice heard on Israel is being a crucial part of a Harris win.
That is the calculation.
Yep.
I would recommend folks watch this 20 minute video on Rules for Rulers from CGP Grey.
Despots, Presidents, CEOs, Deans, Homeowners Association Presidents, the guy who runs the open mic- at the end of the day they have to follow the same rules to maintain their power. The zero’th rule in the video is “without power, you affect nothing”.
I’m voting for Kamala, and I’m voting down ballot for any pro-palestine candidate. I want to send the message that in order to get reelected, she will need to change her stance.
When I see people not voting out of protest, they are giving their opposition the influence over their elected officials. Remember, they work for you, and voting is how you let them know what you want.
This is what thinking people do, given the cureent choice. Good on Bernie! Shame on the narrow minded twits.
It is of my opinion that individuals that don’t vote in the upcoming election are complacent to the atrocities occuring.
I feel that this occupation is just repeating every few years since '87.
Honestly wish we could’ve had Pete Buttigieg running still. Already voted for Kamala in a red state, but honestly hope she stops cozing up to the Cheneys and Israel. We need to focus on infrastructure, housing, and healthcare more than any other issue as they are the basic necessities everyone needs!
Stand against genocide by compromising on genocide! Trust me bro, you don’t understand politics like I do.
When will Dems give up this elitist gas lighting. It’s starting to get embarrassing.
Is Bernie Sanders a Democrat elitist?
He’s shilling for them, so it’s a distinction without a difference.
Kamala is genocidal queen
Don’t forget about all the low level non violent drug offenders she shoveled into the CDCR back in her persecutor days.
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LOL could you imagine if being from a country actually made you complicit in the actions of it’s government? Edgelord child shit right here.
Extremists like yourself are exactly the type of people causing problems in the middle east. You just called for the deaths of Americans for voting.
I hope you live long enough to learn the error of your ways.
Why is he calling the genocide a “war”?
Because when it’s 1 country doing it to another it’s both a war and a genocide. If it’s a country doing it to their own citizens it’s just a genocide. Pretty simple really. Isreal declared war.
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Sheep dog is still sheepdogging
They’re using synpathy towards people suffering genocide to try and coral people to the polls. I’ve seen this before. What happened with Roe V Wade? Why are kids still in cages at the border? Why is minimum wage still so low?
Madam Vice President, too little has been done on issues that were previously promised. I cannot take these people at their word.
Want my vote? End support now. It’s been a year of genocide with you at the right hand of Biden. All those lives lost happened on your watch. I will not be duped into voting for someone who has been complicit in commiting genocide, who is now promising to stop that same genocide because it happens to coincide with their political goals.
I will not support a genocide, on the promise of it being ended, only to wake up on January 21st just to hear 'Well, the situation is more complicated than just simply ending support, but I vow…!"
You’ve had a year to end it, and too little has been done to stop it. I will not vote for a genocidal candidate. I will not say that I support genocide by voting for these people. I will not be an accomplice.
It’s sickening to think that they probably allowed the genocide to continue just to use it as a carrot to lead people to the ballot box, all the while lining the pockets of the military industrial complex.
Fuck off with your promises, you’re in the White House now.
Virtue signalling about genocide and letting the ‘genocide to the max’ guy win will show the Palestinian people how much you care for their plight.
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I didn’t create the situation, I’m just reacting to it. Feel free to tell your kids and grandkids that, when given the choice, you actively supported a genocide.
You’re actively supporting genocide.
It’s very obvious to absolutely everyone that allowing Trump to win will produce the worst possible outcome for palestinians.
I honestly feel sorry for you. I think there’s a strong possibility your own kids and grandkids will be asking you about this time in history, and I suspect you’re going to realise in future how silly this “do x or I won’t vote for you” position is.
By virtue of birthplace, we are all supporting it. The only control I have in this situation is to not actively support the people who are saying they will give support to a genocidal regime. Also saying “Don’t commit genocide or I won’t vote for you” really should not be the controversial take that it’s become.
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Would you like me to make a pdf with some words and some awful photos of what palestine would look like with a Trump supported Netanyahu?
You realise that Netanyahu wants you to abstain from voting right?
Russia, China, Israel, all understand that they can’t get you to vote for Trump, so they’ve been pouring many millions of dollars into manipulating your good self into not voting.
In the article from this post Sanders explains in great detail why Harris is the most likely to negotiate a cease fire. Is that what you would like?
If you refuse to vote for Harris you’re actively supporting genocide.
You are both actively supporting and working to accelerate said genocide. Feel better?
I am already complicit by virtue of birthplace, that doesn’t mean I have to take an active role in supporting the lesser evil.
Then you’ve chosen to support the greater evil.
You can hate the two party system all you want, but it’s the reality we live in.
It is the reality we live in, and I’m not happy about it as much as the next guy. I refuse to give my support to any candidate who is saying they’ll support a genocidal regime. The rest is out of my control.
Wrong. You are given some amount of control with your vote. You could choose to do something and are instead choosing to do nothing. You are choosing to abrogate your control.
Cool, just have a couple quick questions you can maybe help me out with:
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How exactly does a Harris loss benefit Palestine? Serious question. If she loses, Trump wins, and he is very vocally supportive of Israel. I get how this helps bolster a narrative, but how does this help Palestinians?
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How is what you’re doing any different from using sympathy towards people suffering genocide to try to influence voters? Serious question. If leveraging the tragedy in Palestine to corral people to vote a certain way is bad, why are you doing it right now?
I’ll respond when it’s convenient for me, but I appreciate your patience.
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Pay how exactly?
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The Palestinians are fucked either way. Either the party that enabled the genocide will stay in power, or a party will take over that everyone agrees will be worse.
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My stance on genocide will not change. There’s a good chance that the dems will use the genocide as a carrot to get voters to the polls, and then move the goalposts later. They’re leveraging genocide for political gain, I’m just against genocide.
Then you should be trying to prevent the guy who wants all the genocides from getting elected. But you’re not. Which is why no one believes you’re here in good faith.
I don’t care what others believe, they’re voting to support genocide. The only control I have in this situation is to not actively support those commiting genocide. Everything else is out of my control.
Your options are “Genocide, but might be talked into dialing it back if politically viable” vs “More genocide, for genocide’s sake”
All you achieve by not supporting the first is making the second more likely. If you think Bibi’s dictator-loving buddy is better for Gaza than the career politician doing career politician things during a close election, you are an enemy of Palestine.
After the election when AIPAC loses their leverage, Harris could come around. Trump will double down. I’m voting against doubling down, are you?
Genocide is going to happen regardless, the only option I see as viable is to not throw my support behind the parties pushing for it. Harris could come around, sure, but I’m not going to bet on it and I refuse to support it.
You do realize that “Palestine’s fucked anyway, it’s more important to impotently virtue signal that I’m upset about it than to do something which might actually help them in any way” is absolutely sociopathic take that cements you as an enemy of Palestine, right?
-
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“If I can’t have zero genocide then I don’t care to vote against the candidate that is very likely to be even worse.”
Especially with only two candidates with a chance of winning, a vote doesn’t mean unconditional support for everything that candidate wants. Sucks, but if you want to make your wishes known more specifically, you have to do more than just vote (if even that) and complain on the internet.
If I can’t have zero genocide
Look at where we are.
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The unfortunate thing is we can’t have zero genocide. I just don’t want to be complicit in supporting it. I didn’t create this situation or these choices, I’m just responding to them.
Not voting would make you complicit in making it worse if Trump wins. Doing nothing is still a move.
The genocide is going to happen either way, as both candidates are in favor of it. The only choice I have in the matter is whether to to support those candidates with my vote or not. I am complicit by virtue of birthplace, that doesn’t mean I have to actively support it by helping the lesser evil further their political goals.
You’re not helping tankies defeat the allegations that they’re braindead…
I never claimed to be a tankie, so allegations against them hold no weight with me.
They voted against both, dont be mad your candidate was so shit she couldnt clear a ‘dont genocide’ hurdle from a voter. Thats not either your faults or problems its Harris’ problem.
The current system (or voter inertia) doesn’t allow you to vote against both. One of them will win, your only decision is which one you want (or despise less). If your vote doesn’t threaten their win, then when you vote for neither you’re voting for the winner.
The current system (or voter inertia) doesn’t allow you to vote against both.
false premise.
One of them will win,
Yes.
your only decision is which one you want (or despise less).
false conclusion.
If your vote doesn’t threaten their win, then when you vote for neither you’re voting for the winner.
Man, you’re a mental pretzel. please re-read your statement a few times. think really hard on what you just said. come back when you realize how that statement works both ways and is beautiful nonsense.
You agreed that either Trump or Harris will win. Your vote can only threaten one of them, by voting for the other or an alternative candidate. Same with not voting, the winner won’t care about your missing vote.
That means no action you take in the election will harm both candidates, ergo there is no way to vote against both of them.
That means no action you take in the election will harm both candidates, ergo there is no way to vote against both of them.
mmmm. does it though? you think the goal is to harm one of their campaigns. its not. the goal is to do two things:
- ensure when harris gets into office shes bloodied enough in the deep blue states to know she needs to work with bernie and ideally you know not commit a genocide.
- ensure if trump wins that the democrats control both houses.
you can read my post history. I’ve been very clear on this goal. its the only reason I’m wasting my time atm doing this along with other activities the last 4 months I’d really rather not be wasting my time with. like composing emails to my critters reminding them my vote for them is at risk if the genocide continues.
What amazes me is individuals like yourself won’t even put an ounce of effort into helping Palestinians. just a few hours a day, lie to a few pollsters, email your critters, maybe vote 3rd party for president if you live in a deep blue state.
If harris campaign is harmed by this, well I can hardly be blamed. I didn’t chose her policy positions. I certainly wouldn’t have chosen genocide as a platform. but people do weird things. like mentally contorting themselves into a pretzel to support a genocidal candidate when not doing so is much easier. I hope you manage to find your way, but I doubt it. 🤷♀️
I’m glad to see that you’re doing more than just voting, which I was advocating for in the first post you answered.
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Good plan dude. Trump to the rescue.
I don’t think anyone thinks trump is going to rescue anything.
Oh okay, then you’re voting for Harris, right?
The lady in favor of continuing to support a genocidal regime? No.
Ahh yes, of course, of course, so Trump to the rescue then right?
Pretty sure we just had this conversation. Would you like me to copy and paste my previous response?
Mmm, I see, I see, so you’re voting for the only other person who could possibly win this election, Kamala Harris, right?
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Found the Republican.
I’m further left than you’re probably comfortable with.
You’re facing south.
So kiss my north end.
Can’t get to it. Your head is in the way.
I’d rather be doing that than voting to support a genocidal candidate.
You are supporting a genocidal candidate.
