Do you lack empathy for other parents and other children? Do you expect them to die to save you and your’s, or will you just expect enough of them to die to stall for the duration of your lifetimes? How direct does your contribution to the deaths of others have to be? If your daughter was held hostage, would you go to the camps every day and pull the lever on the gas chambers, or would that be ‘too much’?
My mother loves me, and I know she’d die to save my dumb ass. She’d kill a few people at the least too. But I also know she would be deeply ashamed of me if I was bound by common morality to assist in the prevention of a great evil, and chose instead to flee - not just spur of the moment, but continually, every day of my life, until either the evil was successful in its genocide or until other people paid the price on my behalf.
Could you look your daughter in the eyes, and tell her a hundred children raped to death were the price to not risk her life? Not even a guaranteed trade, just not to risk her life? What other risks to her life are unacceptable?
I’m sorry, but trying to reason or shame me into abandoning my parental need to protect my offspring that goes back literally billions of years is not something you’re going to be able to do. There is a long, long history of parents begging their children not to go to war.
The need to protect your offspring doesn’t just transcend species, it transcends kingdoms.
Cool, the need to reproduce also transcends kingdoms, but I wouldn’t be making moral arguments for reproducing at any cost either.
I’m sorry, but trying to reason or shame me into abandoning my parental need to protect my offspring that goes back literally billions of years is not something you’re going to be able to do. There is a long, long history of parents begging their children not to go to war.
There’s also a long, long history of parents shaming or even killing their own children for not going to war for a just cause. This idea of a child being worth committing any evil to save is very modern. You can claim that it’s something that you could never fight, that it’s some biological imperative that takes precedence over everything else, but history, and fuck, recent examples for that matter, very clearly points to that being nothing but an excuse.
I don’t remember making a moral argument. When did I do that? Can you please quote it?
If your argument isn’t that saving your child under these circumstances is moral, what you’re saying then, is that you recognize full well that what you’re proposing, since it is seemingly entirely without limits, is unforgivably evil, but you’re 100% okay with it anyway and have no interest in examining or questioning it.
You are getting dangerously close to violating civility rules.
You do not get to tell me it is my duty to send my child to die in a war any more than you get to tell me that it’s my duty to sacrifice my child to appease the volcano god no matter what moral argument you are making.
And you also do not get to call anyone here evil. You have been here long enough to know that.
I’m sorry that you think I’m evil, but that does not give you the right to call me or anyone else evil.
Edit: Also, I seriously doubt you never do anything out of self-interest and only spend your life altruistically, which is what you are essentially berating me for not doing.
Also, I would suggest that I do not have the moral right to sacrifice anyone’s life but my own, related to me or not.
: Also, I seriously doubt you never do anything out of self-interest and only spend your life altruistically, which is what you are essentially berating me for not doing.
Because… I say that… there should be SOME kind of moral limit to what you would do to prevent risk from someone close to you?
Because I say that, I’m demanding you live your life 100% altruistically?
Also, I would suggest that I do not have the moral right to sacrifice anyone’s life but my own, related to me or not.
Sorry… I have no idea what you mean by ‘inaction.’ I told you the action I would take- I would flee before my daughter was an adult.
But you also seem to have some idea in your head that if my daughter were an adult, I would tie her down and put her in the basement if she wanted to go back and fight rather than let her make her own decisions.
But no, I will not allow my underage daughter to fight in a war and I will do anything I can to stop my greatest fear from happening. If you have the ability to overcome your greatest fear, good for you. I do not claim to have anywhere near that level of bravery. And if lacking bravery is evil, I guess I’m evil. But it’s an inherent evil I have no control over. Wouldn’t that make it a mental illness rather than an ethical violation?
Sorry… I have no idea what you mean by ‘inaction.’ I told you the action I would take- I would flee before my daughter was an adult.
And you don’t see how fleeing necessarily implies inaction on matters of the preservation or sacrifice of the lives of others?
But you also seem to have some idea in your head that if my daughter were an adult, I would tie her down and put her in the basement if she wanted to go back and fight rather than let her make her own decisions.
Perhaps you can point out where I said that.
But no, I will not allow my underage daughter to fight in a war and I will do anything I can to stop my greatest fear from happening.
Here’s what you said originally:
I’m too old and too sick to ever be called up to fight unless it’s hopeless. But I have a 14-year-old daughter and I see no reason for the modern U.S. military to keep its “women can’t be drafted” policy in such a situation. I can’t lose her. My biggest fear, one I have nightmares about, is outliving her. Even if I was super patriotic, I don’t think I’d risk her being forced to fight. I would flee.
In order for both claims to grok, your original statement would need to have implied that the US military abolishing its “women can’t be drafted” policy to ALSO add a “And we’re drafting underage kids now” despite nothing else suggesting that, AND that risking her being forced to fight and the fear of outliving her is only valid so long as she’s underage AND unwilling, despite nothing else suggesting that, AND that argument being put forth being entirely irrelevant to the subject of the article, which is of people of conscription age fleeing, AND that argument being irrelevant to the comment you were originally responding to, being about someone’s conscription-eligible kids being called up and them fleeing because of that.
If you have the ability to overcome your greatest fear, good for you. I do not claim to have anywhere near that level of bravery. And if lacking bravery is evil, I guess I’m evil. But it’s an inherent evil I have no control over. Wouldn’t that make it a mental illness rather than an ethical violation?
Oh, please. That argument can easily posit that, since we live in a deterministic universe, nothing is an ethical violation, because we have no control over our own actions.
Also, since you wanted it all in one comment chain with regards to your incivility and ‘calling people evil’ claim:
Here’s what I said
If your argument isn’t that saving your child under these circumstances is moral, what you’re saying then, is that you recognize full well that what you’re proposing, since it is seemingly entirely without limits, is unforgivably evil, but you’re 100% okay with it anyway and have no interest in examining or questioning it.
Is saying that an argument or position is evil now unacceptable, so long as someone holds that position or argument?
You are getting dangerously close to violating civility rules.
For correctly pointing out that your argument is entirely without limits? Civility is when someone doesn’t say something that makes you think about your deeply held positions, and the less you have to think, the more civil it is.
You do not get to tell me it is my duty to send my child to die in a war any more than you get to tell me that it’s my duty to sacrifice my child to appease the volcano god no matter what moral argument you are making.
Cute, that you equate stopping genocide with superstition. Funny enough, the very example you use, the historical ‘sacrifice your child to the gods’ ALSO goes against your claim of doing quite literally anything for your child being the irrepressible urge of billions of years of evolution that you can’t help instead of a very modern phenomenon.
And you also do not get to call anyone here evil. You have been here long enough to know that.
Oh, I don’t get to have opinions on morality, now? I’m sorry. Please forgive me for judging anyone as evil. I’ll remember to say nice things about the Nazis next time too. After all, they were just preserving a future for their children. I mean, what if their children had the risk of going hungry and dying in the future? Isn’t cleansing the land of foreigners to preserve plentiful estates for them worth removing that risk?
I’m sorry that you think I’m evil, but that does not give you the right to call me or anyone else evil.
So now I can’t call anyone evil. Wow. I’ll remember that the next time I’m discussing genocide.
You can get as angry at me as you like, but no, you do not get to call people names. This is stated in the sidebar.
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect!
But you are welcome to think I am an evil person. However, since we seem to be in agreement on virtually every other issue, that should probably be cause for you to reflect on your own positions.
An evil person can’t only be evil on one position after all, and you wouldn’t want to fall for a confirmation bias.
You can get as angry at me as you like, but no, you do not get to call people names. This is stated in the sidebar.
Here’s what I said
If your argument isn’t that saving your child under these circumstances is moral, what you’re saying then, is that you recognize full well that what you’re proposing, since it is seemingly entirely without limits, is unforgivably evil, but you’re 100% okay with it anyway and have no interest in examining or questioning it.
Is saying that an argument or position is evil now unacceptable, so long as someone holds that position or argument?
An evil person can’t only be evil on one position after all,
Do you lack empathy for other parents and other children? Do you expect them to die to save you and your’s, or will you just expect enough of them to die to stall for the duration of your lifetimes? How direct does your contribution to the deaths of others have to be? If your daughter was held hostage, would you go to the camps every day and pull the lever on the gas chambers, or would that be ‘too much’?
My mother loves me, and I know she’d die to save my dumb ass. She’d kill a few people at the least too. But I also know she would be deeply ashamed of me if I was bound by common morality to assist in the prevention of a great evil, and chose instead to flee - not just spur of the moment, but continually, every day of my life, until either the evil was successful in its genocide or until other people paid the price on my behalf.
Could you look your daughter in the eyes, and tell her a hundred children raped to death were the price to not risk her life? Not even a guaranteed trade, just not to risk her life? What other risks to her life are unacceptable?
I’ll take that as a no.
The need to protect your offspring doesn’t just transcend species, it transcends kingdoms.
There are trees that will protect their offspring.
I’m sorry, but trying to reason or shame me into abandoning my parental need to protect my offspring that goes back literally billions of years is not something you’re going to be able to do. There is a long, long history of parents begging their children not to go to war.
Cool, the need to reproduce also transcends kingdoms, but I wouldn’t be making moral arguments for reproducing at any cost either.
There’s also a long, long history of parents shaming or even killing their own children for not going to war for a just cause. This idea of a child being worth committing any evil to save is very modern. You can claim that it’s something that you could never fight, that it’s some biological imperative that takes precedence over everything else, but history, and fuck, recent examples for that matter, very clearly points to that being nothing but an excuse.
I don’t remember making a moral argument. When did I do that? Can you please quote it?
If your argument isn’t that saving your child under these circumstances is moral, what you’re saying then, is that you recognize full well that what you’re proposing, since it is seemingly entirely without limits, is unforgivably evil, but you’re 100% okay with it anyway and have no interest in examining or questioning it.
You are getting dangerously close to violating civility rules.
You do not get to tell me it is my duty to send my child to die in a war any more than you get to tell me that it’s my duty to sacrifice my child to appease the volcano god no matter what moral argument you are making.
And you also do not get to call anyone here evil. You have been here long enough to know that.
I’m sorry that you think I’m evil, but that does not give you the right to call me or anyone else evil.
Edit: Also, I seriously doubt you never do anything out of self-interest and only spend your life altruistically, which is what you are essentially berating me for not doing.
Also, I would suggest that I do not have the moral right to sacrifice anyone’s life but my own, related to me or not.
Because… I say that… there should be SOME kind of moral limit to what you would do to prevent risk from someone close to you?
Because I say that, I’m demanding you live your life 100% altruistically?
And where does inaction fit into that paradigm?
Sorry… I have no idea what you mean by ‘inaction.’ I told you the action I would take- I would flee before my daughter was an adult.
But you also seem to have some idea in your head that if my daughter were an adult, I would tie her down and put her in the basement if she wanted to go back and fight rather than let her make her own decisions.
But no, I will not allow my underage daughter to fight in a war and I will do anything I can to stop my greatest fear from happening. If you have the ability to overcome your greatest fear, good for you. I do not claim to have anywhere near that level of bravery. And if lacking bravery is evil, I guess I’m evil. But it’s an inherent evil I have no control over. Wouldn’t that make it a mental illness rather than an ethical violation?
And you don’t see how fleeing necessarily implies inaction on matters of the preservation or sacrifice of the lives of others?
Perhaps you can point out where I said that.
Here’s what you said originally:
In order for both claims to grok, your original statement would need to have implied that the US military abolishing its “women can’t be drafted” policy to ALSO add a “And we’re drafting underage kids now” despite nothing else suggesting that, AND that risking her being forced to fight and the fear of outliving her is only valid so long as she’s underage AND unwilling, despite nothing else suggesting that, AND that argument being put forth being entirely irrelevant to the subject of the article, which is of people of conscription age fleeing, AND that argument being irrelevant to the comment you were originally responding to, being about someone’s conscription-eligible kids being called up and them fleeing because of that.
Oh, please. That argument can easily posit that, since we live in a deterministic universe, nothing is an ethical violation, because we have no control over our own actions.
Also, since you wanted it all in one comment chain with regards to your incivility and ‘calling people evil’ claim:
For correctly pointing out that your argument is entirely without limits? Civility is when someone doesn’t say something that makes you think about your deeply held positions, and the less you have to think, the more civil it is.
Cute, that you equate stopping genocide with superstition. Funny enough, the very example you use, the historical ‘sacrifice your child to the gods’ ALSO goes against your claim of doing quite literally anything for your child being the irrepressible urge of billions of years of evolution that you can’t help instead of a very modern phenomenon.
Oh, I don’t get to have opinions on morality, now? I’m sorry. Please forgive me for judging anyone as evil. I’ll remember to say nice things about the Nazis next time too. After all, they were just preserving a future for their children. I mean, what if their children had the risk of going hungry and dying in the future? Isn’t cleansing the land of foreigners to preserve plentiful estates for them worth removing that risk?
So now I can’t call anyone evil. Wow. I’ll remember that the next time I’m discussing genocide.
You can get as angry at me as you like, but no, you do not get to call people names. This is stated in the sidebar.
But you are welcome to think I am an evil person. However, since we seem to be in agreement on virtually every other issue, that should probably be cause for you to reflect on your own positions.
An evil person can’t only be evil on one position after all, and you wouldn’t want to fall for a confirmation bias.
Here’s what I said
Is saying that an argument or position is evil now unacceptable, so long as someone holds that position or argument?
Fucking what