• Sundial@lemm.ee
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    10 days ago

    There’s also ghe argument that being part of it can give you the opportunity to speak against it. Regardless, I don’t blame anyone for making the decision you described. It’s very situational and not at all an easy question to answer.

    • Chronicon [they/them]@hexbear.net
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      10 days ago

      sure. I just don’t see a lot of historical examples of that working, personally. I guess you could organize your coworkers against the evil shit, but well compensated engineers tend to be pretty morally flexible in my experience, and not easy to meaningfully organize towards any goal.

      And as a cog in the machine you are replaceable, and your work up until that point will then continue to be used for ends you have no control over even if you stuck to your principles and quit when asked to participate in something reprehensible. IMO it’s easier to not get into a field that has a lot more potential for genocide than it does for improving society, than it is to minimize your harm once you’re there and basically guarantee you’ll be forced to make very hard morally compromising decisions.

      • Sundial@lemm.ee
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        10 days ago

        There wouldn’t be historical examples of that happening because if it works then it’s there’s no example to draw from. The closest thing I can come up with is figures like MLk or Gandhi who advocated for better progress and standing in their society while working within it. But I can’t give examples of when this kind of mindset stopped a bad thing from happening in the first place.

        There does come a point where you have to cut your losses however. Reminds me of a quote that I’m having trouble digging up where it talks about how there were plenty of good people who were Nazis who tried to steer the direction of what the Germans were doing. The quote ended with essentially saying it didn’t matter what their motivations or intentions were, history just remembers them all as Nazis.

        • blobjim [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          10 days ago

          there were plenty of good people who were Nazis who tried to steer the direction of what the Germans were doing

          it didn’t matter what their motivations or intentions were, history just remembers them all as Nazis

          yeah cuz they didn’t do anything lol.

          History does remember defectors and saboteurs if the news gets out.

      • Sundial@lemm.ee
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        10 days ago

        More like trying to stop war crimes from happening to begin with. Doesn’t always work admittedly but we should try to where we can.

        • Z_Poster365 [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          10 days ago

          you aren’t going to do jack shit, the system changes you you don’t change the system. The “reform from the inside” myth is extremely silly and naive unless you are actively doing sabotage and espionage as a fifth column, that’s about the only time it’s valid.

          • Sundial@lemm.ee
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            10 days ago

            A lot of societal progress is done from within. Women’s suffrage, MLK or Malcolm X with black rights, Gandhi with Indias independence. These things do happen.

            • Z_Poster365 [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              10 days ago

              Where did you get the idea that Malcolm X or even MLK were “within” the system of white supremacy? No progress was gained in MLK’s day until he was martyred, and then the subsequent unrest and riots forced concessions from the white supremacists in power. It was violent unrest that earned those rights. MLK was extremely outspoken about “white moderates” who tried to do slow reform, and called them worse than the KKK. He didn’t agree with you.

              • Sundial@lemm.ee
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                10 days ago

                They were a part of American society and worked within the law to improve it and advocate for better rights (for the most part, I don’t recall if they broke any laws intentionally).

                  • Sundial@lemm.ee
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                    10 days ago

                    It was non-violent civilians disobedience. They weren’t fighting, they were protesting. Which can be argued as legal, given the rights afforded in the US constitution.

                • blobjim [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  10 days ago

                  They got some improvements. They didn’t fundamentally change or fix anything. And that still required a massive movement. It also involved global political pressure caused by the US attempting to “compete” with the USSR morally (the US needed to improve its image during the Cold War so they could keep doing what they were doing). But I don’t think you can easily compare the civil rights movement with someone hired for a job to “change [their job] from the inside”. Usually if you don’t do your job, you get fired (or fined, or imprisoned, or worse). And then you’re not on the inside.