“They are not women’s clothing. I bought them. They are mine.” Eddy Izzard
Ah, but now she’s Suzy Izzard, this line has a whole new context in which to be explored
I already know what you’re getting at but arguments in favor of breaking gender stereotypes aren’t made invalid if the person who originally made them ends up identifying as trans. I know that lots of people like to use situations like that as “evidence that people who break gender stereotypes are just trans-in-denial” and/or a justification for harassing GNC folks (r/egg_irl and r/traaaaaaannnnnnnnnns were especially awful about that back in their heyday) but it’s very important to recognize that GNC people are valid in their own right, and trying to generalize them as transgender is hurtful and enforces the toxic gender stereotypes that hurt people.
Oh and before someone tries to twist my words around. No a trans woman wearing a dress doesn’t enforce gender stereotypes, what enforces gender stereotypes is to say a person (i.e. a femboy) is trans because they wear a dress without their input on the matter.
I agree with your point. But a guy who wears a dress isn’t inherently a femboy. Which I know isn’t what you’re saying but it can be interpreted as having that implication.
That is a good point, a person who wears a dress isn’t necessarily a femboy. Some certainly are but plenty also aren’t. It wasn’t my intention to imply that wearing a dress makes someone a femboy and I can see how it enforces gender stereotypes to a deree. In the end a skirt or a dress is a piece of clothing, which inherently do not have gender and saying someone is a femboy for wearing those clothes isn’t great if the end goal is to break away and be free from these stereotypes.
Oh I’m definitely not trying to make a statement about gender identity or any sociological ramifications thereof - at least, I don’t mean to. In not thinking about my comment that way when writing it, I hope there isn’t a mean-spirited reading of it!
I was thinking more in the realm of comedy, how jokes are constructed, and what makes them funny or interesting. This classic line from a legendary comedian has recently had a new wrinkle added to it, and I find that interesting. I am curious to hear Izzard’s take on it, if indeed she’s even given it a second thought. (I imagine she has, but I wouldn’t dare assume to know her mind)
Hope that makes sense. Thanks for sharing your thoughts
I think it is changing. A few decades ago women wearing pants also weren’t acceptable.
Though I think there is a loophole. If you would put on a Scottish Kilt you probably would be ok.
Just commented, nah, women do not like the kilt look, not any I’ve dated. I’m not so hot on them myself. One of those things that sounds like a good idea, doesn’t really work out. OTOH, very nice with leggings and combat boots. Warm!
Guys, if you want to try one, get a knock-off Utilikilt. Loads of pockets, manly looking (I think) without the formal pleated look. I never have a chance to wear the pleated one. :(
I wore a Utilikilt for a while. They’re surprisingly uncomfortable. Sitting in a kilt requires effort. The material is a heavy denim, which is hot and doesn’t fall nicely. I expected the breeze to be enjoyable. It’s not.
The pockets are good.
The women I’ve dated that are into men love guys in kilts, but I’m a woman so it may be that bi women are more likely to like it than straight women. That said I’ve heard complaints that some guys don’t bother with ensuring it’s a good kilt for them and picking a good outfit with it
Perhaps for the younger generations? Gen X will always think it looks weird if a man wears a summer dress, because trend choices get fixated in your late teens and don’t change that much after that.
Shout out to my skinny guys: Girl clothes are cut for us, especially at the waist. Hoodies and jackets are the bomb. Try it. Wife about shit when I strapped on my new women’s jacket. “OH! SO sexy!”
Got plenty of casual clothes given to me by exes. That’s how I learned.
Buttons and zippers on the “wrong” side are a pain, still worth it.
(For context: I’m a middle-aged, white guy living in the South. No one so much as blinks.)
None of those are women’s clothes though, they’re “women’s” clothes, gendered only by companies trying to make more money.
That’s the point he’s trying to make
Not really. Good women’s clothing is cut differently then men’s clothing, so it fits our bodies better, mostly accomodating our narrower waists and wider hips. (And the zippers and buttons are on the opposite side too of course.)
Lies! Deception! Women’s clothing rarely accomodates my wide hips. Swimming shorts at the men’s fit me better. Which it shouldn’t! Same goes for nice, loose clothing. Even the largest sizes just feel like they are trying to shape my shape into a more feminine shape, rather than accomodate my shape comfortably. Fuck women’s clothing. Flimsy, thin, short, cold, crawling, tight, garbage with stupid design. All of it.
The life of a skinny man. Do I choose the clothes that fit me right, or do I choose the clothes with usable pockets?
Mine (mostly) have pockets! But the obvious (to me) reason so many women’s clothes lack pockets is because pockets ruin the form. Wearing my zip-up jacket yesterday, looked great, cut tight, but if I carried stuff in the side pockets it would ruin the look.
And if women truly wanted useable pockets, they’d buy more such clothes. Not like these designers are clueless as to what sells and aren’t maximizing profit.
Exactly! I’m like a 28 inch waist and it’s nearly impossible to find men’s jackets, T-shirts or hoodies that fit right.
Tried buying girl versions of those things? Not sure about T-shirts, haven’t tried that. But I have a small middle-aged gut, not much at all, but I think I might look silly in a woman’s T-shirt.
Idk, haven’t tried “women’s” sizes yet, but will when I get the chance.
I remember in JRPG The World Ends With You, each piece of clothing has a “Bravery” rating. Higher Bravery on the clothing meant the user needed to have a higher Bravery stat to wear it. Girls naturally had mugh higher bravery, and those outfits ranged from girly to risque, but there was no actual gender restriction.
Right on man
Oh, that’s rad. I always wish I had played that game. A little too touch-centric for emulator, though, if I remember.
There’s multiple versions! The OG DS game was VERY touch heavy, but the mobile game remake made the controls much simpler. For me, no version is ever going to match the craziness of having to watch both screens at the same time, but the game is so damn good that if you haven’t played it I’d recommend whatever version you can get your hands on.
Yeeees Joshua, eat 500 bowls of tonkotsu Ramen and then put on the black bakini!
For a long time, and still now, left is met with criticism. People just like to control other people’s lives strangely
Yer be shillin me for wearin me kilt!? My father’s father’s fought the English of ye highlands with nothin but a kilt and his mighty long sword!
And then he found his sword and the English were really in trouble
That sounds impressive but did he shoot fireballs from his eyes and lightning bolt from his arse?
I have my own pair of leggings because they’re comfy AF and if anyone wants to talk shit about that, two things: A, my wife bought them for me and that makes them EXTRA special, and 2: fuck off randy, the only reason you’re so butt hurt is because your massive insecurities prevent your ass from being caressed by a cloud.
Honestly for the longest time I didn’t even know leggings were supposed to be “girls clothing” I always wore them as a child in winter under my jeans. Never knew they “weren’t meant for me” . Honestly leggings are great
They are very comfy, I’m not sure why they’re considered a girls only thing anyway. I’ll still wear them regardless I don’t really care.
The great thing about skirts is that they can be breezy even when they’re long! So if you’re not comfortable with everyone looking at your legs, or can’t be bothered trying to sit without showing your crotch, get a nice sweepy skirt that comes to your ankles and Stride! Sprawl! Swagger and Swash! Shwing!
Yes! Floor length skirts are amazing!
Old guy here. Pants are prison. Wear a skirt. It’s amazing. Fuck those people.
In a warm climate I’d imagine the breeze is nice. Up here in Canada though you need a pair of egg warmers.
Depends on which part of Canada you’re in but where I am? It’s been above freezing for the past couple days and will likely stay that way. In Summer it’ll get 33c or higher (91.4f for the Americans). Where I’m from originally it would work even better because the summers get that hot but also absurdly humid. Like 95% humidity.
I’m in Mb which has been surprisingly nice lately. (Almost scary to be honest considering it’s supposed to be between -10 to -20c this time of year.)
Still though, freezing drizzle with a draft up the backside is less than comfortable in my opinion lol!
Wore women’s camo leggings with an olive-drab utili-kilt. Damn that was comfortable. But wearing a kilt in the woods and the heat? Just didn’t feel right to me, and I’ve tried a couple of different kinds.
I’ve never been bit by mosquitos in my dangly bits, and I don’t think I want to be. Had a woodtick there once when I was 8, that was more than enough.
you need a pair of egg warmers.
Canada has more than one season. It can get very warm in the summer
Well yes, but I’m referring to present day with it being winter. In the summer it easily gets past +30c here. Last summer I would have gladly run around nekkid when it was +36c if I wouldn’t get arrested.
Man I wish people were that nice to me before I came out
fuck pants
Fuck pants have a fly or undoable back/crotch depending on whether they’re for the fucker or the fuckee
I… needed to read that a second time. Yes.
Are JNCOs skirts?
A skirt for each leg. The truest equality.
I have no conceptual problem as a cishet man with wearing skirts, but I’ve worn drag on stage in high school and it was sort of hard to stop flashing people my underwear at various points and that would be all I would think about if I wore a skirt now.
You could go with the athletic shorts under the skirt, still a lot of airflow but no risk of flashing.
Just wear a nice snug pencil skirt: no chance of flashing your knickers and it will look great with your heels.
That doesn’t sound breezy and comfortable.
He has an erection in both.
Sometimes the “offense” that guys feel over guys wearing skirts and stuff is definitely from closeted thoughts or outright self-hate, but that’s not necessarily the case. The underlying issue is they view clothing as gendered in the first place.
Style shouldn’t be associated with sexual attraction implicitly, but it does for stupid people, and many people are stupid. Especially horny guys thinking with the wrong head.
The mere presence of a particular article turns them on, and they project that to intent. It is entirely subjective if they get upset at popping a boner, or upset that a male would use clothing that traditionally makes a female sexy. It requires the dumb person to view another’s clothing choice as a direct expression to them, but stupid people taking things personally that aren’t personal should be preeeetty easy to understand!
It’s a lesser mindset, male-focused version of, “what was she wearing?” after an SA event. Just because I’m trying to look pretty and you like some part of that, I am still most definitely not coming on to you by wearing it.
Just commented a couple of times on my kilts being a visible turn off to the women I’ve dated. I’m a small man, not afraid of girl clothes, but that wasn’t hitting with 'em.
Before you go banging on people for “lesser mindsets” and such, consider this; Attraction is not a choice.
Let me day that again for those in the back; Attraction is not a choice.
I think we might be agreeing, but let’s not put people down for their attractions.
We definitely shouldn’t be putting down people for their attractions, but I think there is value in highlighting that a person’s concept of attractiveness can be socially constructed and therefore can also be deconstructed.
I think instead of labelling people with narrow or socio-centric concepts of attraction as “lesser” or stupid or uninformed isn’t fair, but I also think it’s fair to say that they likely haven’t gone through the process of deconstructing why they feel the way they do.
Except for the interesting intellectual exercise, why deconstruct it? Again, attraction is not a choice. If a man in a kilt turns a woman off? So be it. It’s not like emotions can be fought with logic.
All worth discussing and thinking about, but in the end deconstruction of attraction won’t win anyone over.
Because it’s valuable to deconstruct any concept that is held without a clear reason. It’s far more important to know why you believe or feel what you do than just knowing what you feel or believe.
I’m not expecting to convince people of my position, nor to have others change their positions based upon said deconstruction, but it’s worth raising nonetheless.
If attraction can be socially programmed (as it so very obviously is), then it can similarly be deconstructed. The first step to achieving that is questioning the motivation for attraction beyond “that’s hot”.
It constantly astounds me that people somehow do not understand the concept of introspection.
The “why” is more important than the “what”. Always. Killing a man is cold blooded murder in one context, and saving your entire family in another. Thoughts are the same. If you don’t know why you are correct, you are far less likely to be correct on a less obvious question.
I swear, these are the people that hear a Trolley Problem and only start asking questions to see if they can get you to agree with killing more than the other track…
Attraction is not a choice, but if your reaction to cognitive dissonance is to get angry at someone wearing clothing, that is a YOU problem.
Yes, lots of people have problems with this. That does not make it acceptable. Again, attraction is not a choice, but you do not have to hump their leg.
I hear those excuses all the time from rapists. “I was attracted!”, “look what she was wearing!” Know what you defend when you say people cannot control their attraction: That’s EXACTLY what a lot of rapists say.
People SHOULD be able to control their attraction, at least enough to be a civil person. Being a rude piece of shit over clothing is very much ALSO not being a civil person. Things don’t have to get violent for them to still be wrong.
I never really considered this perspective and really appreciate you sharing it, thank you!
I think you hit the nail on the head. It is very interesting how different I (male-presenting) get treated when I wear a skirt vs trousers. The whole rest of my outfit and appearance is similar - I have the same haircut, glasses, coat, boots, backpack. But when I wear a skirt, I know that people notice me far more, and I also for some reason start getting compliments from women.
So I dont think that’s something which only happens with men noticing women, but that skirts (especially yhe ones which are shorter and more fitting) society at large seems to associate with sexual attraction. I will be honest, it is a bit of fun to know I have so much power over peoples attention - that I can control the amount of attention on me by wearing pants vs a skirt. But I also fully agree with what you’re saying - people can wear skirts just because they like them, not because they want to be sexy to you (shocker moment).
I know that we subconciously do it all the time, but: how do you deal with the fact that people treat you differently just based on what you’re wearing?
I’m not so sure I DO “deal” with it. I just do mostly what I want and get annoyed at people when they get judgemental about it.
I HATE peacocking or doing anything to show off because I hate attention, so style has always been a question I deliberately fail to answer.
Makes sense. Thanks for your insight!
At least to more directly answer your question: I absolutely despise gendered style. You’d imagine access to the loins would be universal, but noooo, of course the more common target of desire gets the short end of the stick…
Humans are still disgustingly simple beings. That’s genuinely how I feel about your question.
Hmm, in which sense simple? Just don’t get the connection :)
Oh definitely. While it’s not a given that bigoted folks are closeted, it’s worth noting that there’s been some studies showing it’s not just a joke: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/homophobes-might-be-hidden-homosexuals/
Your take on it seems likely in other cases, and/or some combo of both.
That said, I would much rather a man with an erection look at me like on the right than like on the left, which was a bit more where my joke was coming from.
