This really hits home, so much so it’s uncanny. As a child, constantly questioning the rules got me in trouble a lot. But that wasn’t the hard part. The hard part was observing I was alone in doing this, completely alone. Nobody else my age seemed remotely interested in the “why”, and seemed to have no problem complying with rules they didn’t understand. That was true for both school rules and maths class : what’s the application of this theorem? ->do not concern yourself with this, I’d hear. The adults were quick to scold me for something that was intrinsically natural, because they thought I was challenging their authority. I was just trying to understand. I was unfit for this world and it nearly broke me on several occasions.
Not just as a child, but as an adult too unfortunately. And then, when you understand why , and you know when or when not to follow it because you understand when a reasonable exception arises, you’ll be scolded and derided just for having an independent mind
This is only noble if you believe that autism gives an infallible ability to determine the reasonableness of rules and a perfect knowledge of how rules came to be, which it doesn’t. The end result of this attitude is “I’ll follow the rules I want to follow, and ignore the ones I don’t”, which is indistinguishable from a neurotypical asshole.
No. The key is the questioning. If the answer is “don’t question it” or “I don’t know” or “we’ve always done it that way” it’s not worthy of respect. Not following rules we don’t like does not require asking any questions, and also can be done just as well when we already know the answers.
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No you fuck.
Allistics don’t question the rules but then also bend them frequently. Break them when no one is looking.
Autistics question rules constantly and when a rule survives the questioning they view it as a slight against humanity when anyone fails to follow it perfectly. They virtually never break rules they respect, even when no one is looking.
Neurodivergent people are not a monolith.
🗿
This is massively over-generalized. I’m sure some people on the spectrum do this. I don’t talk to a lot of people, I am very reclusive, so I couldn’t give you an actual irl baseline from experience, but I’m on the spectrum. I have a job with plenty of rules I don’t think make any sense. I have a vested interest in keeping my job, so I follow the rules. One of my coworkers has been in the same job for over a decade, and she is quite proficient at following rules she personally doesn’t like or understand. She wouldn’t have a job here if she didn’t.
Someone on the internet overgeneralizing their experience with neurodiversity based on their own personal experience? Unheard of
yeah but where is the part where they lecture everyone else who they are wrong or not neurodiverse if they also don’t have the same issues?
Pretty sure this is less true the older you get, because we all learn how to fit in.
I dislike this as a concept because I’ve seen it applied to other groups, and it’s almost always used as an excuse to ignore certain social norms that are clearly in place to keep people from hurting each other.
How to even ‘middle ground’?
Either follow a rule or not, there is no middle ground.
Easy. Follow the rule when it makes sense, not follow it when it doesn’t.
There are so many fields where that does not work, for example in the car. If I cannot rely on the behavior of others it’s unsafe and everyone is unsatisfied.
I agree with others in this thread, this has more to do with ethics and critical thinking than with nuerodivigence. And that nuerodivergence seems to be getting conflated here with autism, specifically.
This has little to do with autism and more with being smart. No, seriously.
From the English Wikipedia, stages of moral development:
- Obedience and punishment orientation (‘‘How can I avoid punishment?’’)
- Self-interest orientation (‘‘What’s in it for me?’’) (‘‘Paying for a benefit’’)
- Interpersonal accord and conformity (‘‘Social norms’’) (‘‘The good boy/girl attitude’’)
- Authority and social-order maintaining orientation (‘‘Law and order morality’’)
- Social contract orientation
- Universal ethical principles (‘‘Principled conscience’’)
1 and 2 are “Level 1 (Pre-Conventional)” (according to the same article, children and animals have this), 3 and 4 are “Level 2 (Conventional)”, 5 and 6 are “Level 3 (Post-Conventional)”.
The last one is basically thinking around “what if everyone did that?”. Unfortunately, lots of people are at either stage 2 or 4. Sometimes downgrading from 4 to 2 once they become the authority.
Now I need to figure out how to level down to live a happy life.
It’s very curious to claim neurodivergent people refused to participate in the slave trade, the Holocaust, or white nationalist lynch mobs.
I haven’t seen any evidence to this effect. Certainly, I’ve seen a fair share of evidence against it.
This has little to do with autism and more with being smart.
Intelligent people engage in immoral activities frequently. They get sucked into cults of personality and religious extremism frequently. They are conned frequently.
Intelligence isn’t infalliblity.
Just because you’re following your principles, doesn’t mean they’re not shitty principles. Nazis were following a principle (white supremacy) to the ultimate end.
It’s very curious to claim neurodivergent people refused to participate in the slave trade
I never did.
Intelligence isn’t infalliblity.
True. Objection, relevance.
Exactly this. Why is everything nowadays neurodivergent…
Why not both?
Because one isn’t necessarily the causation for the other or vice versa. And this moral-guideline portrayed here is simply a sign of a higher intellect and/or more time spent on the problem of “what is right and wrong”.
I am both BTW.
Well, you know, it was rethorical and before you answer, yes I am aware. It was more of a funny/sarcastic poke at the topics.
I can relate to the situation. Everyone (as an example) has adhd now. And it fucking sucks. My sister had that diagnosed in around 1990 where you could be sure you had it when you got the diagnosis.
And now it’s flipped upside down. Now the ones that need support or a diagnosis can’t get it because of that flood. I would like to have my autism diagnosis but I likely will never get the chance. And especially now later in life when I could have used support because my limits are starting to hit harder and my energy is lower.
Anyhow, I’ll be fine. But just to state where I am coming from, the whole situation is totally messed up either way.
Problem is probably not that “everyone has adhd now”, but that everyone gets diagnosed now what was mostly ignored back then. I’m a genx-oldfart and I was told my whole life to stop being so “weird” and “be more like the other kids”. I only got my diagnoses with 50+. Useless now, but at least i know i’m kinda “normal”. Just differently wired.
And yes, I’ve heard that the public health diagnosis can suck ass here (germany) too. Waiting-times for psychiatries are sky-high, and most don’t even do adhd-diagnosis anymore because of that. And paying yourself is not for everybody.
So yeah, I hear you. Knowing that MUCH earlier could’ve changed a lot of things. But that’s what happens when knowledge evolves. Things become more “mainstream” and that has downsides too. No light without shadow.
I wasn’t bashing on you or adhd, but the situation. I even got paid for people to diagnose me wrong (not ados even though I requested it).
I got told I am too friendly for Autism.
because it makes people feel special to say they are neurodivergent. it’s a neat label to have for many folks.
it doesn’t make them feel special to say they are lazy entitled jerks… which is usually the behaviour they are reporting on that they claim makes them neurodivergent.
and if you look at the neurodivergent communities on here… a lot of the posts are them basically claiming they have super powers.
it’s the same psychology behind horoscopes, new age religions, flat earthers, etc. people really really really want to feel special and different and superior (or persecuted/victimhood) to ‘everyone else’, and neurodivergent has become yet another way for folks to feel that way about themselves.
I never thought of being ND as “something special”. But yup, probably right. Whatever makes you feel stand out. Another useless trait humans shouldn’t have. The need to be in the center of everything.
This is why I’m Vegan.
It’s a sign of intelligence to question the status quo.
And if being intelligent is neurodivergent because the rest of the populace is stupid asf, so be it
This is not a valid excuse to go into asshole territory. Occasionally, you might not be in a position to understand why things are done a certain way - mostly because of inexperience, or your higher-ups might not have the time to explain the rules to you. Some examples might include regulations or standards.
It’s alright to be humble and recognize that you may not understand some things sometimes. That’s actually how you learn, and avoid pissing off your colleagues.
Agree. Refusing to follow rules / policies unless you have a full explanation of why that rule / policy was made just makes you an unemployable asshole. Neurodivergent or otherwise. The idea of me explaining in detail a specific set of policies, having someone sit there smiling and nodding along, just to go right ahead and flat out ignore me would infuriate me, as it would basically anyone.
And FWIW, autistic people generally do great with rules. The disorder generally leads to people struggling in ambiguity, not black/white rules.
The original post + poster just suck
This isn’t a neurodivergent thing. It’s an intelligent / ethical person thing.
It’s also unlikely to apply to all neurodivergent people, so I don’t know why it was phrased that way.
Because most autists have a stronger sense of rule and most ADHD of ethics. While some don’t. They just didn’t want to be exclusionary.
WTF is wrong with this thread.
No. Intentionally breaking rules just because you don’t understand their existence is not a sign of ethical thinking or intelligence.
Yeah, I’ve noticed a real problem on here with that. Claiming neurodivergency for something that some people do and some people don’t.
This is a trait that some people have. Some people do it more and some do it less. If it’s combined with many other symptoms and it makes it difficult for someone to function in society then it might be grounds for a diagnosis.
I think things like this are also just representative of a general shift in society. There’s a lot more education online and elsewhere about the power dynamics in society that might have been ignored or not understood in the past. So this behavior is more prevalent which coincides with an increase in neurodivergency even though those two things aren’t actually correlated.
Being that literal about a meme is something not all autistic folks do, and some allistic folks do, but it is still an autism trait. Like the rules thing.
I feel like you grasped a straw here and it really didn’t work. Even if I can parse out the point you’re trying to make, it still just affirms my point? But I’m not sure I even got what you were trying to say.
I don’t think it’s necessarily “a problem on here”, I think this type of assertion is just part of exploring neurodivergency.
Does something really need to make it difficult for someone to function in society in order to be part of a diagnosis? That seems unlikely.
I disagree that this is an “intelligent / ethical person thing”, although I don’t really believe that intelligence and ethics is really measurable in that way.
Yes. It does need to make it difficult to function. That’s one of the core criteria for most diagnoses in the DSM. “Neurodivergency” as a meme and - I guess you can call it a subculture? - on the internet is wholly misunderstood.
It’s really hard to categorize neurodivergency. Particularly in contrast to being “neurotypical”. There isn’t an “average human” that they compare people to on a chart and say “yep, you’re not up to this standard” gavel bang “autism”.
I mean, just think about it. If more than 50% of people exhibited this trait in one way or another, this behavior suddenly becomes neurotypical, since the “typical” person possesses this trait.
But the problem with this, just like your problem with intelligence and ethics is that it’s all impossible to measure. Behaviors like this exist on a spectrum. This is part of my problem with this aspect of the subculture and posts like this. This behavior happens in “neurotypicals” as well. Autism isn’t a switch flipped in your brain that suddenly gives you special traits that neurotypical people don’t have. Autism is a diagnosis that happens when a person has a defined constellation of traits that are generally correlated and one or more of which are making it difficult to function.
I saw another post recently that went something like “neurotypicals don’t understand having to take a day off after social events” and “neurotypicals don’t rehearse social interactions in their head”. Which is simply untrue. Many many people take a rest day after a social event or think about how to handle a social interaction, the only difference that the behavior isn’t so severe that they are functionally impaired by it.
Couldn’t agree more. I do not follow arbitrary rules unless compelled to, as long as it doesn’t harm anyone or anything. If you want me to do something, there needs to be a logical reason for me to do it
Bingo. Better have a good damn reason for trying to obstruct my autonomy and dictate my actions. Otherwise I couldn’t give less of a shit about some arbitrary rule.
To be clear, I’m happy as a clam to follow rules
As long as they make sense
I generally follow the rules unless I have a reason not to. The rationale is that just because I don’t see the reason for the rule doesn’t mean there isn’t one. If everyone ignored every rule they didn’t understand the need for the world would be even more of a shit show.
So I stop at the stop sign when no one is around. I know I would only do it when it was safe, but so does everyone who got hit by a car running a stop sign at a blind corner in the middle of the night.I’m definitely asking about it if it’s the least bit inconvenient though.
Most of the time most rules are really arbitrary, actually.
Especially regarding table etiquette, or things as social etiquette. Why should I sit in a way or another at the table while eating or use spoons, knives, and forks in one way or another, even if those aren’t the most comfortable ways for me, just because that’s the rule? Why should I look people always to the eyes? That won’t make communication better or easier, and just will be hurtful to me (literally, I can suffer from headaches, nausea, cold sweat, stomach aches, and other symptoms of severe social anxiety).
The problem with acritical rule following is that it will make you more prone to do bad things if a rule tells you to do so, just because “that’s what the rules say”.
Alright, but I didn’t say not to uncritically follow rules. I said I follow rules unless I have a reason not to.
From what you said it sounds like you have a reason.I was also pretty clearly talking about rules of greater consequence than table manners or conversational etiquette. I don’t typically put things like traffic law in the same category of table etiquette.
It’s a pretty big stretch to go from “I don’t put my feet on the table at dinner” to “the rules required me to do bad things and I did it because those are the rules”.
Finally, there’s a reason for most rules of etiquette and manners, you just don’t know what they are or care. That’s fine in the end, I don’t typically follow all rules of etiquette either because I’m lazy. If someone invites me to their fancy dinner though then I’ll put a napkin on my lap, keep my elbows off the table and eat with the right fork at the right time. Not because it’s the rules but because I want the persons fancy dinner to be as nice as they hoped. I’ll follow a rule of etiquette because I care about someone else.
But I never said or implied that anyone should follow rules without thinking.
Yeah I agree.
I’m autistic, have a sense of justice being the result of reasonable clear fair and as objective as possible rules being consistently followed…
… but you don’t need to be autistic to adhere to that. You can be ethical, moral, hold yourself to a standard, determine the reasonability of said standard, without being autistic.
Also… neurodivergence is more broad than just autism.
ADHD is a form of neurodivergence. On its own, I don’t see that as being inherently relevant to rule comprehension, consideration or adherence, beyond maybe more complex rules or contingent rulesets taking more effort/exposure/practice to understand, consider or adhere to.
Schizophrenics are neurodivergent. Their ruleset often frequently changes considerably, due to reasons they often cannot explain coherently, and/or the rules they’ll tell you they follow can be incoherent/contradictory.
DID is a form of neurodivergence. Each different identity often has its own significantly distinct ruleset / approach to rules.
Being bipolar is arguably a form of neurodivergence. Such people essentially have two rulesets that they alternate between.
Plenty of stupid unethical rules have detailed explanations.
The tweet misunderstands autism (And vaguely calls it ‘nuerodivergence’). Questioning rules in autism is, at least in my own experience, more about justice than merely understanding why the rule is. We’re not asking why for the logic, we’re asking why to make sure it’s just. You don’t usually loudly disobey an unjust rule unless you’re making a stand, you do it quietly without acknowledgement because people who enforce unjust rules tend to be vindictive and cruel about it.
No
Maybe.
I don’t know
Well yeah, there are only two kinds of rules:
- The right way to do things
- Stupid bullshit that serves no purpose
If you can’t at least give a basic reasoning for the rule, it’s #2
Exactly. Put the fucking shopping carts where they belong! But also don’t get onto me for riding it into the coral like a bobsled led by imaginary bears.
Is riding carts autism or just being a kid for life? I still do this and DOS was my first OS…
Pretty sure it’s just people feeding their inner child. The rule thing is real, though.
upvote for DOS family!
🤘🙂↕️ started on 2.0 on my grandfather’s dual floppy pc.
dir/c://friend/hug.exedir/p
What version though? I think we started around 4.0. We were rocking a Tandy 1000 as our first “real” PC 😄 I still remember some amount of fanfare surrounding 6.2, 6.21, 6.22 lol
i forgot about Tandy PCs! 🥲 i liked the name lol
Are you me or am I you?
Edit: did you ever play with paint on Win 98 like it was a battlefield? And if so, what are your feelings on Worldbox?
How do the bears exit the cart corral?
Ghost bears
The ghost bears are only here for support.
Alas, they cannot interact with physical objects.
I said coral, though. It’s a reef because they are reefer bears.
Politely offer them a marijuana joint in exchange for not swimming through the delicate ecosystem.
In my messenger bag, which is cave-like and bigger on the inside.
By bribing the herder
One does not herd bears. One asks bears.
Think of cats as opposed to dogs.
Fair, by bribing the butler then?
“Bribing The Butler” sounds like a sitcom.
No, it’s all about mutual respect. Affinity, in some situations.
Same way they got in.
wouldn’t they have to climb over the cart you rode in?
i mean, i’m sure it’s not a problem. bears are agile climbers.
Even easier: they’re imaginary bears, just imagine then outside the corral.
Ah, I see the problem: I’m imagining real bears. I need to imagine imaginary bears.
Let that be a lesson to you.
If you don’t have an imagination within your own imaginations or the imaginations of others, it’s time to expand the realm of endless possibilities within your very own imagination!!!
And I do this through the power of imagination presumably?
No, they turn around first, shake off the harness and push the cart into the next cart (while chuckling about how it’s like sexxx)
Right on, good answer. AWAHOoOoO
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
passes ayahuasca cup & obligatory puke bucket
Is that really a rule, or more of a suggestion?
Wear a shirt that asks that question when I am guiding my cart led by bears into the coral reef corral! I dare you! Heathen! Miscreant! Obsturctor of order! Suggestiquator of squalor! You fool! The coral corral exists for a purpose! How will you navigate the parking lots, nay, STREETS…when they are filled with stray shopping carts! YOU SHANT, AND WE WILL ALL SUFFER FOR YOUR QUESTIONING OF THE ORDER DEMANDED!!!
Streets stray with my kin
Nay
The disregard forced injustice of the corrupted Pushers
I was a gift given freely
Anyway
There was a monster in the parking lot that day
I follow the rules unless they don’t make sense to me, I must be autistic and neurodivergent omg so quirky.
People, we can just remark on things, we don’t need a unique identifier for every observable opinion in the world. I know its part of finding belonging and community, but you aren’t neurodivergent for questioning the way the world works, you’re critical of your surroundings and that’s a good thing
“My superpower is I don’t listen” is a thing I see repeated way too often on social media.
So the neurodivergent folk converge on it? This rule of thumb makes no sense to me.
Are you questioning the rule?
Yes, maybe I just didn’t understand it.
you’re clearly not neurodivergent enough. gotta level up
