I don’t understand why there are so many people who consider themselves “Marxist feminists”, but at the same time are distracted by astrology.
The origin of feminism is working class, and as a working class movement, it is materialist. I don’t know if they at least know what dialectical materialism is, since they don’t see such an abysmal contradiction between astrology (pseudoscience) and feminism (materialism).
They remind me of the liberal “feminist” Gloria Steinem.
And the same with some anarchists.
What do you think about it?
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Having been close friends with someone who’s way into astrology, I think there’s a number of factors here.
Firstly, in a world that is clearly ‘going wrong’, with ever increasing economic precarity, political polarization, and visible worsening of climate change, the idea of a system than can give you any level of prediction for your personal future is a huge comfort. Marxism, despite being a scientific discipline that makes very accurate long-term predictions of social development, has no (or very little) power on the individual level, so some people may cling to this other system that gives them a sense of preparedness for their personal life. And while I agree that truly understanding and internalizing a dialectical-materialist perspective means both an end to being able to believe in things like astrology, and a kind of inner peace in the face of the inevitable dialectical unfolding of the material world, most people (who are still valuable allies) never actually reach that level of understanding.
Secondly, as people are increasingly alienated and atomized, it provides access to a large social space of overwhelmingly non-straight-white-cis-male people, immediately gives you a tribe with specific traits and icons to identify with, has (at the very least, the aesthetic of) a deep history going back to antiquity and has a lot of specific in-jokes that can quickly bring someone into the fold. My friend is constantly posting memes about the supposed characteristics of various different star signs, sub-categories of those star signs, interactions between different star signs, etc. etc. It’s an endless source of, for want of a better word, content, which you can enjoy both as part of the space as a whole and from within your specific niche. You can see something and say “Yes, I am like that! They know me so well!”, or “Ah, you got me! I do that too!”, or “Oh, those [star sign]! That’s exactly how they are!”, all of which binds you into a social fabric and identity that rarely exists elsewhere.
And thirdly, through the supposed ‘compatibility’ of different star signs, it gives people a guide to who they should try to form a relationship with. Statistically, by far the number one danger to women is their male romantic partners, both in terms of physical violence but also in terms of the possibility of psychic distress. Will he dump me? Will he cheat on me? Will he leave me to do all the house work? He seems like a good guy now, but is he just tricking me until he thinks I’m stuck with him? Does he secretly listen to Andrew Tate? Will he start doing that a year into our relationship and suddenly completely change? There’s no way to know these things, and under patriarchal capitalism men are under constant social pressure to gain these behaviors and traits. So a system that claims to give even the slightest insight into who you can trust to be a good partner offers a huge psychological comfort.
And thirdly, through the supposed ‘compatibility’ of different star signs, it gives people a guide to who they should try to form a relationship with. Statistically, by far the number one danger to women is their male romantic partners, both in terms of physical violence but also in terms of the possibility of psychic distress. Will he dump me? Will he cheat on me? Will he leave me to do all the house work? He seems like a good guy now, but is he just tricking me until he thinks I’m stuck with him? Does he secretly listen to Andrew Tate? Will he start doing that a year into our relationship and suddenly completely change?
What’s the point of a guide with an irrational basis? It seems deeply dangerous to me to try to answer these questions based on the timing of someone’s birth. Sure, there’s no 100% reliable way to answer these questions, but there have to be better methods than literal mysticism. Like say, investigating what his friends are like.
I understand that people find comfort in beliefs, but the idea that you can trust someone based on the alignments of stars and planets is so wild to me. And that goes for conventional religion too. I don’t think most Christians or Muslims feel these sorts of questions can be answered simply by knowing the other person is also a believer. If they did, I think they would be making a mistake. You can be hurt by people who fit the right “type”, or who share the same beliefs as you. Find comfort in what you want, I suppose, but basing trust in people off of spiritual belief can have catastrophic results. like abuse in cults
These responses describing astrology as just a psychological comfort or even as entertainment, equating it with using the internet or playing a game, seem to ignore that the repeated practice of a belief can instill that belief, and that true belief impels you to act based on that belief. Lots of people treat astrology as just a fun fantasy to discuss, and I really have no problem with that. But truly believing in it and acting on it seems not only not Marxist, but more importantly a risky and misleading way to live life. If we don’t embrace irrational reasons for making political decisions, why should they be embraced for making personal decisions?
You’re absolutely right, it’s no real help whatsoever. But there’s also no other actual guide beyond just having to learn the hard way to discern people’s true intentions, which is difficult and exhausting while astrology appears so simple and easy. This is not in any way a justification, just my explanation of why it’s so pervasive and attractive, and why the state of the world cultivates pseudoscientific beliefs in general - of which astrology is merely among the most socially acceptable to display, and therefore has the largest reach.
I definitely think its use in making life decisions is actively harmful, but it’s hard to pull people away from what may be their strongest social connections. In this way it’s just like any other real religion, which as Marxists we obviously oppose, but we also have to understand that these beliefs, and the psychological need for these beliefs, arise from social conditions of alienation. So until we’re in a position to change social conditions, just attacking the belief system and the people who believe in it won’t achieve results and will just push people away. Especially when so often, the people holding these beliefs will come from among the more marginalized intersections - probably not a coincidence, as if you’re a member of a group who has much more control over their life why would you need to look for guidance in the stars?
When the time comes, I’m sure there will have to be some kind of cultural revolution to sweep out every kind of pseudoscience, from astrology to crystal healing to reiki to everything else, but until then all we can do is tolerate these beliefs in our allies, push against them in our actual comrades and make sure they’re never used to make the really important organizational decisions.
This is not in any way a justification, just my explanation of why it’s so pervasive and attractive
I see now. I wasn’t sure earlier if you were defending it or not. I think your earlier explanation as to why it appeals to people makes a lot of sense.
I agree with your assessment here about pseudoscience. Magical thinking is a product of alienation and can give people hope and reassurance, but there’s a fine line between self-soothing and denial of reality and necessity.
I think we have to be careful to disentangle our view of pseudoscience and magical thinking from judging the character of their adherents. I don’t think we can always ignore these beliefs as an issue for a later date. Addressing these beliefs now can and should be done with empathy. I think this counterreaction to “reddit atheism” has come about from conflating their belligerence, lack of respect, and laundering science for progressive-washed imperialism, with their ontology being incorrect. We have to make a positive case that confronting life’s problems without magical thinking gives people a more genuine agency and sense of agency, which is emotionally fulfilling too.
as always, Marx put it best:
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.
We shouldn’t be afraid to call on them, we just have to be careful and empathetic.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions.
Man, I’m sure I’ve read it before but I must have forgotten, he really does always cut it right down to the purest truth.
I agree with everything you’ve said, and having read through this other thread about astrology I think I was taking too soft of a position on it, for exactly the reasons you mentioned.
I’d also like to link an essay, The Overthrow of Religious Authority and the Eradication of Superstition (1927) which I think is relevant.
im way more concerned with people glazing the woke pope and liberation theology as proto communism than I am somebody doing a birth chart, idk.
This thread has so many ridiculous takes. Also I keep laughing at just how much of an obvious foreshadowing the title of this post was “Feminism and Astrology”.
Like that feels like it comes straight out of reddit lmao.
Anti-patriarchal aspects of witchcraft, as others have eloquently stated here already. Also on some level it’s a chicken/egg thing as some point, as girl power culture (I’m sure there’s a term for that) embraces certain hobbies and interests. For every girl that seems to embrace dangerous woo-woo shit, there’s thirty more that just wanna have fun.
I may have my biases as a former Wiccan, though.
I just see it as a way some people of all genders try to fill the space left by religion. It doesn’t necessarily have to be coded as an activity exclusive to one gender. I know plenty of guys into stuff like that. I’ve heard others describe this phenomenon as a way to question the accuracy of outcomes predicted by the secularization thesis.
Regardless, I still am diplomatic with people who like that stuff, despite me not believing in it. I don’t want to come off the same way the New Atheists did when discussing religion. That sort of militant attitude can be off-putting when trying to make the case for socialism.
I’d say the best way to discourage taking such practices too seriously, I’d suggest deconstructing such practices by reading about it’s history. Understanding the history of a topic helps one realize the fallible and changing nature of a supposedly unchanging process for discerning truth. I use the same approach with religion
This “space left by religion” shit never made sense to me. Is that a thing other people/normal people/neurotypicals actually experience?
Everyone believes something
This feels like you’re playing a little semantic trick with the ambiguity of the meaning of belief, conflating ideology and metaphysics.
Have you read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future? I showed it to somebody who left religion decades earlier and could see what a gut punch it still was. I think he had basically substituted indefinite space exploration for heaven and finding out that even that’s not an option was like losing faith a second time.
Future events more distant than the entirety of human civilization are filed firmly under Not My Problem
So what, how dare women have a hobby or interest right?
Sorry, but I never assumed it was women who considered themselves Marxist feminists in the first instance, I wrote “people”. And I’m not taking astrology as “a hobby I do in my spare time”, I’m referring specifically to the anti-materialism implicit in it, taken worryingly seriously by supposedly materialist people.
This is very silly. Not everything needs to fit into a “materialst/anti-materialist” box.
What about reading works of fiction? Playing card games? Watching movies? Studying languages? Learning a skill? None of these have anything to do with materialism or production. Are the people engaging in them, “anti-materialist”? Are the activities “anti-materialist”?
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with astrology, its a fun hobby like anything else.
There’s nothing anti-materialist in fiction because it doesn’t claim predictive capabilities on reality, there are anti-materialist things in astrology because it claims predictive capabilities on reality.
