I would probably support it if they were being physically or emotionally abused, but the devil is in the details. Forced foster care is not a scenario where I would just say that child will definitely be better off in than with their family. As sad as it is, some kids end up in worse positions if their foster parents are also terrible people.

Every case is different, and I’m never going to advocate for a blanket solution for every child.

They should have access to blockers

Was the first thing I said. You can wind down, I’m not against anything but rhetoricians giving fiery nothing-burger speeches encouraging rash expediation of something that requires no such thing or to be done in any such fashion.

What is the rush if they are able to access puberty blockers and what are you seriously proposing?

Is this medicine? What is the damn rush once the hormones/anti-hormones are prescribed to delay the decisions requiring a more mature and set mind?

All the arguments you can literally make from the other side. Perhaps the rush is artificially imposed from + on both sides and a product of a polarized debate that is non-referential (responsive) to any medical or psychological process or the focus on the child’s health/wellness that would otherwise be organic to the overall effort.

You are not a dr. I am not a dr. Lets listen to drs but also ensure that kids aren’t being forced into something that is not them and reduce the impediments to being evaluated and going through the process so the right people are treated and others are given an off-ramp where it would be inappropriate or detrimental.

I’m saying “let drs figure it out” but also we need to learn from the successes and failures and if there’s any sign of parental coercion, control needs to be removed from the parent and invested in an arbiter who is required to be responsive to the health and safety of the child. That will be all

Yes, the right does, in fact hammer the point home about detransitioning. I will not deny that.

In your opinion, is there, or what could be a ‘good’ middle ground on the issue of some people who detransition.? Do you think there ever will be middle ground on it?

I watched a talk with Blair white and some others who are trans talj about detransitioning. I don’t remember the name of the YouTube channel that hosted it.

However, I can find it if you’d like for further clarification.

Anyway, that seemed to be the general consensus on detransitioning. That we don’t know that much about it, and the only thing we can do is learn from it and add it to research.

In your opinion, do you think that is the only option we’ll have ?

Thanks again for answering

At the end of the day, any bill that tries to codify or restrict any of this needs to be converted into a funding bill so it can be studied more and the political bullshit limited.

It is clearly living rent-free in many psychos minds so it needs to pay rent by converting all their restrictions that promise nothing and demand everything that conveniently also drive up the cost and legal ramifications of the whole thing or make it downright impossible and punish those who seek to pursue it into funding that eases the psychos minds by promising funding and research to further investigate what it is, who needs it, and how to optimize the process so it is done properly, given to those who need it and not just want to try on different costumes or are facing coercion, and that no politicians need to be involved or say anythjng about it at all like cancer or adhd or anything else more established

The medical field needs to be responsible for applying evidence-based medicine on the entire discourse. Any politician who tries to divide or dictate this policy needs to be

1. sued to oblivion and be personally liable
2. courts need to strike it down every time as whatever they need to designate is as to illustrate the intrusion of the political into the personal and physical body rights likely enshrined or should be enshrined already
3. Trans stuff is not a social issue that should be up for debate. It is a rare medical thing and everybody should get their damn paws off it and let medicine dictate how we proceed.
4. if people who went thru it regret it, they are free to express that and add to the knowledge base but this shit where right-wing eats it up and tries to destroy other people in oncoming generations who actually need it and likely will face irreversible harm if they are forced to undergo regular puberty that can be delayed with the proper meds until they make a more solid determination—that is beyond fucking evil and that+person should be struck the fuck down

But they’ll continue to whatabout you and JAQ you off regardless, so I maintain that even if there were circumstances calling for transition, it would be none of my damn business anyway.

In Canada, you can start transitioning as a teenager, but that’s almost 100% hormonal treatments which aren’t permanent.
There’s therapy involved. There’s physicians involved.
More people regret knee replacement than gender affirming surgery.
In Canada, kids aren’t going through irreversible surgery. It just doesn’t happen. It’s a years long process, so toddlers would never even be considered because it takes years. The toddler wouldn’t be a toddler by the time surgery was scheduled.

If you read, the standards of care for trans people, you’ll see that the medical establishment doesn’t agree with irreversible surgery before adulthood. I’m not saying that it doesn’t happen in other countries, but it goes against the international standard.

If you want some references I can help, but I encourage you to look for some of the primary sources.

There’s a ridiculous amount of misinformation out there regarding this topic. It can be really hard to see through that.

That is why there are second opinions and ultimately it is the patient’s choice even if two doctors agree.

I 100% agree with this, but it wasn’t the question.

The question was whether parents can override the choice of patient when the patient’s choice is supported by a doctor’s recommendation. And more specifically, whether parents can deny a reversible puberty delaying hormone treatment against the patient’s wishes and force the patient to undergo puberty against their will.

!00% disagree that a single doctor’s recommendation should ever be required to be followed, because sometimes doctors are wrong. That is why there are second opinions and ultimately it is the patient’s choice even if two doctors agree

Yes, but I didn’t want to get into all that because what type of insufferable pedant would demand so much detail in a casual forum? We can assume this. We’re not writing a thesis on medical care ffs.

being forced to have a specific treatment

Good thing no one is talking about being forced.

Redditeur detected. Blocking engaged.

I have never heard of a study of child abuse resulting in a child having a trans identity. Child sexual abuse can have an effect on sexuality going forward, but that’s different than gender identity.

Generally the abuse associated with LGBT kids is coming from a parent who thinks that the abuse can alter their identity. Gender identity formation can start as early as during fetal development.

Another important factor to consider is that, like the concept of race, these categories are social constructs. They are different in different societies, and even within a society they change over time. A man who had sex with other men or both men and women was not considered gay in the 1930s, as long as they were male presenting. They would be considered libidinous and socially conservative people would look down their noses at them, but those people did the same to women who smoked cigarettes and went to jazz clubs. There’s an old saying that runs “Fish don’t know what water is.” It means that when we’re completely immersed in a culture, we think that what we’ve been taught and have absorbed are accurate and objective descriptions of reality.

But in any case and to answer your question - no, I am not aware of any studies that found that reverse causality. Kids know their genders at a very young age. It is a combination of neurological formations which began development during gestation and interactions with cultural artifacts.

In our current society, girls wear dresses and play with Barbies and take ballet, while boys wear sneakers and play sports and like trucks. Each of these things have culturally defined semiotic content - there’s layers of symbolic meaning. How they resonate with a person will depend on that person’s biology.

The abusive behaviors - especially the most problematic ones - come from socially conservative, often religious households. They correlate with a preference for traditional social roles for men and women, misogyny, and a phobic approach to change. Can you think of how a right wing abusive environment leads to the development of a trans identity? Is there a hypothesis there? The data actually indicates the opposite - as social approval grows, the number of people identifying as LGBT goes up. If it was intolerance and abuse causing the formation of an LGBT identity, we’d expect it to be highest in the most conservative times and places.

I’m going to be talking about abuse here, just as a warning for anyone reading this.

I absolutely believe conversion therapy is abusive. I’d like to answer this followup in two parts.

First, I think that conversion therapy should be illegal. I believe that the companies and organizations hosting those services should be shut down and that the people operating them should be investigated and prosecuted if their practices constitute defined definitions of abuse, such as physical punishment, forced isolation, and so on. The organizations sponsoring them should be fined and dissolved. That’s going after one end of the problem.

The second one is looking at the parents. It doesn’t matter whether they think it’s abusive or not, any more than a man who beats his wife because she deserves it thinks he’s just giving her discipline. It’s abuse.

However, this is another one of those indicators I was talking about. It’s part of a pattern of behaviors, but again I think we’d need more information on the parents’ conduct to their kid to establish whether removing them from the home would result in an improvement in their life going forward. It’s not like we have a clone army of Jonathan van Nesses to rehome these poor kids with.

Abuses that I’ve seen LGBT kids suffer under include withholding of food, physical abuse, and what amounts to forced incarceration. I’ve spoken to kids who have had their clothes physically torn from their bodies, resulting in injury. One of the most common ones you see is children being thrown out onto the streets. I think that under those circumstances, the state should be empowered to act. That doesn’t necessarily mean taking the child from their parents, but it might. There’s also things like court mandated counseling and required followup visits from child services. Any intervention has to be proportional to the facts of the given case.

When a person says “I experienced this”, that does not imply “I can speak for everyone who has experienced this”.

It simply doesn’t. That’s too big a jump, from what was said, to something else not said. Why do that? It doesn’t help communication at all.

OP asked for opinions, commenter stated their opinion in a respectful way. Why are you trying to shut them up?

t can’t be the case that every time someone asks a question that you don’t like, they must be doing so in bad faith. That’s a fallacy.

Lmmfao, says the person literally dismissing a reality they don’t like by calling it a fallacy… 😂

If the blatant dog whistles and phrasing of not only the question but several of their answers isn’t enough, the fact that OP insists they’re interested in hearing opinions opposed to their own, and then engages at length with those giving non transphobic answers (while upvoting the transphobes) should be.

You not seeing through their thin veil (never mind a well known tactic right out of the bigots playbook) means just that - that you can’t/won’t see, not that it isn’t there.

You choosing to defend them at this point and despite their now clear intentions means you’re either too naive and/or wilfully ignorant to be calling out anyone for using “fallacies”, or you agree with them and are also, like OP, trying to hide behind a thin veil of “civility”… Either way, you’re both full of shit… ¯\(ツ)/¯

Amen dude.

Categorizing the asking of questions as toxic behavior is an ultra sketchy and transparent attempt to avoid examination of one’s own beliefs. At best. At worst, it’s an attempt to create a culture of silence and isolation in the world. Fuck everything about that.

Questions are valuable. The most valuable questions are probably the ones you least want to be asked, and the people who make you uncomfortable are value to have in your life.

You asked a shitty question and are clearly looking for a specific response.

I don’t think children should be able to decide to transition when they are at an age where their brain is not even close to developed. At a later age if they still feel the same way I don’t disagree with it, but when they are children I don’t think it should be an option for them.