Funny aside, ziq hates me :D
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Another “both-sides” banger by ziq.
“Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and control of industry and commerce.”
This is a useless definition of fascism. It describes basically any existing political-economic system. Even an anarchist system falls under it. Unless your anarchist system wouldn’t maintain a monopoly on political power, forcibly suppress people trying to destroy it, and not have control over industry and commerce?
I don’t really know where to begin with this essay. To try to take it apart point by point would take ages and it just hits on all the same points that liberals do anyway (and uses the same sources). I’m just tired of fighting with anarchist comrades. Maybe when the struggle gets to the point that this shit actually matters we can try to resolve our contradictions. Until then I’m fine working with anarchists in actual real life work that matters.
Funny aside, ziq hates me :D
Yeahh, zig hates everyone btw lol. They’re one of those ridiculous “anti-civ” “anarchists” who basically exist solely online. Have you read their essays where they advocate for ending organized agriculture and returning to a hunter-gatherer subsistence lifestyle? Lmao
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Any other definition of fascism I’ve seen includes the whole ethnic superiority/ social hierarchy aspect in the definition.
… Not that it makes a whole lot of difference what with Homo Sovieticus or N. Korean weird racial purity fetish but it’s still disingenuous to leave it out
The most useful definitions of fascism I’ve seen are how it’s primarily a response to a collapse in liberal economic order and certain sectors of capital find it useful to rile up popular suppression of leftist organizing. As in, capitalists hit the emergency button to maintain authority and drop the theater of democracy. In some cases fascists will represent specific sectors of capital, such as manufacturing, at the expense of other sectors such as finance. The ethnic superiority thing comes along with typical revanchist rhetoric about restoring order, which is the main plank of a standard fascist movement: “We’ll get rid of the socialists and restore the previous order.”
I really do think it’s most practical to view fascism as an emergency movement. It’s panic, it’s frenzied stripping of the copper wires. Not to get into it here, but “peacetime” fascism is arguably modern neoliberalism.
I typically point to Robert O. Paxton’s work. He’s a liberal, but otherwise has a very good insight into fascism.
100%, I unironically view fascism as the second half of the boss fight, when Capitalism gets all red and angry and does double damage.
Based. We need gamer Marxism (just a little, as a treat)
Fascism is not inherently as aggressively racist as the Nazis, though racial ideology seems to be an inevitable part of it. See how Mussolini wasn’t exactly running racial pogroms, at least until Hitler pushed him in that direction.
Your characterization of those socialist states is wildly incongruous and misleading, but I don’t think there’s hope on moving that needle.
Im totally happy to hear explanations as to why it’s not a racial superiority thing, I was just given to understand that N. Korea has an insane racial dogma and that the Hom Sovieticus was all about racial evolution.
Which was very trendy at the time. Doesn’t mean it aged well.
I would encourage you to actually read about these topics and especially look at all at primary sources.
The idea of the New Soviet Man was simply that people are formed by their material conditions, so a new set of conditions in a society that fosters pro-social values and development would produce people who were different from those raised under the Czar or in liberal states. It is absolutely not a race thing. If you want to hear about eugenics being cool, try post-exile Trotsky (fuck him, he was a crank).
With the DPRK, I’ll need a reference because otherwise it just sounds like one of the countless things just invented by South Korea or the US to slander them. My guess is that they just have their own version of the New Soviet Man as a matter of cultural inheritance from their involvement with the Soviet Union.
I expect the Homo Sovieticus misunderstanding on my part is a result of the terrible US high school system and some blending of Trotsky into mainstream Sovietism, thanks for the clarification!
While I’m equally unsure about the DPRK racial purity thing since you’ve challenged it I did find this article from Berkeley discussing it’s roots in Japanese fascism.
If you read the article, there is an allusion to there being a book on the subject, but the only direct evidence presented is that quote from Kim Jong-Il, so I tried googling it and the result is basically three other sites plagiarizing the article and nothing else. If you are wondering, I placed the quotes on the second clause only because of the spelling of “homogenous” being variable, as you’ll notice from the suggested search.
So basically “there’s a book about it” is what is left of the claim. I do also find the history a bit weird since Koreans were treated as chattel by Imperial Japan and to this day the more reactionary parts of Japanese culture regards them as a foreign and inferior race, while mainstream Japan glosses over how much of Japan’s population is ethnically Korean to make its own claims of homogeneity.
Do I need to try to dig up a digital copy of that book?
Edit: full disclosure, Trotsky supporting eugenics is a pretty obscure thing, I mostly just mentioned it as a dig at him. I doubt it really influenced the New Soviet Man perception even though he basically did assert that if America went socialist, there would be a New Socialist Man within 100 years that would actually be the product of eugenics, unlike in the Soviet case.
This is “theory” that I only ever see vaushites sharing going “hmmm interesting”
Do you want to actually change the existing order? What we have now is violent and authoritarian, replacing it will also be violent and authoritarian.
Even people that watch vaush and get their leftist theory from Youtube probably think parts of the first few paragraphs of this article are bogus. You’d literally get a more factual description of history from your average high school history class.
Then you’ll end up with a violent and authoritarian society, so nothing has ultimately changed.
All revolutions are, are you going to manifest a wish into reality?
Sorry but revolutions do not necessary have to be authoritarian
Your enemies are also violent authoritarians, how do you propose that a nonviolent nonauthoritarian revolution protect what gains it has and resist organized violence without some level of “authoritarianism” literally every example of revolutions (anarchists and otherwise) have this feature, or they fail.
I don’t consider needing to make a unified front nearly as authoritarian as the everyday violence under capitalism.
A unified front does not have to be authoritarian, by which we mean hierarchical top-down power structures.
Here’s a good starting point to learn more: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/the-anarchist-faq-editorial-collective-an-anarchist-faq-full#text-amuse-label-sech21
You seem to have a lot of faith in manifesting your imagination into reality. I suggest joining an organization and putting in some work, because that’s how literally anything in reality get changed.
I organize with anarchists and most of them would get called tankies by you online anarchists lmao
You seem to have a lot of faith in manifesting your imagination into reality. I suggest joining an organization and putting in some work, because that’s how literally anything in reality get changed.
I suggest you look at my body of work before suggesting to me to do more work.
I organize with anarchists and most of them would get called tankies by you online anarchists lmao
Y’all have a very western/USA-centric pespective of anarchists and it shows.
You seem to have a lot of faith in manifesting your imagination into reality
Says the tankie to the anarchist, both living in delusion of practical reality.
Your cruel maskless authoritarianism will make an example to the world of what not to do. Over and over again people like you are revealed to want one thing. Control without check. It’s why you’re scared of capitalism. You actually have to be worth a damn to compete in a market, but when you embrace authoritarian ideals all you need are friends and guns.
The last two decades of American stagnation in terms of wages and take home pay are largely thanks to the repressive policies of overseas authoritarian “socialists” who justify their repression with the same ideals you do. They suppress their people’s income to make their manufacturing competitive and undermine American labor in the process.
And American tolerance for their bullshit thanks to our naive idea that we are invincible and these countries will “come around”.
I’d love to come back in a decade to see how this all pans out for you, but you’ll probably be parroting the exact same narrative despite continued evidence that a mixed market economy with strong unions is the best structure for society we have today.
I organize with anarchists and most of them would get called tankies by you online anarchists lmao
This is what I say all the time around here. I really don’t get all this hatred agains commies.
I don’t think we all have the same concept of what is an authoritarian
Why are you seriously posting something from ziq, a person that hates you?
Anyways, why are you taking anything he says seriously?
I just read the first few paragraphs, which include an ahistorical description of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, ignores the CIA’s operations in Afghanistan before 1979 (which they have admitted to themselves) and cites an American professor living in South Korea whose entire job is to write propaganda about North Korea, propaganda which his own peers in the USA and South Korea have criticized and called absurd.
There is little of value here, this is the ramblings of someone that throwing stuff out there hoping it sticks. This is not anarchist theory. The first few paragraphs are less factual than the average descriptions of history that you’d see on liberal/capitalist media or get in a high school history class.
Also Tainanmen. Athough fatal clashes did occur on Chang’An avenue and elsewhere in the city, in which hundreds of civilians and a smaller number of soldiers died, witness testimony from numerous western journalists and diplomats and student organizers themselves who were in the square all night, has indicated that no one died in Tiananmen itself. A Spanish news crew even filmed crowds of students walking out of the square at the end of the night. The Tiananmen Square Massacre is a stunning example of a “big lie repeated often enough.”
The first link is a comprehensive article. I can link more on request.
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Some important context for why things turned so ugly after two months of peace, and why a false narrative took hold in such a coordinated way afterward, is that the CIA and its cutouts were openly present. For starters, 30 year CIA veteran James Lilley was appointed ambassador to China on April 20th, five days after the start of public gatherings in Tiananmen, which were initially to mourn the April 15 death of Hu Yaobang. Gene Sharp, who literally wrote the manual for how to start nonviolent color revolutions, flew in for 9 days and observed mysterious efforts to drive the protesters to violence — an intelligence asset only partially aware of the project he was involved in. The CIA was embedded with the protesters “for months” according to the Vancouver Sun, steering and equipping them. Voice of America was broadcasting disinformation to PLA military bases claiming some units were loyal to the protesters and were firing on other units, and claiming Deng Xiaoping was near death — literally attempting to whip up a military insurrection. This was a committed US effort to topple the Chinese government, using the momentum of the USSR dissolving and Hu Yaobang’s death.
Excellent response! Like a true tankie, devoid of all reason, spectacular fallacies, self victimizaton… Brilliant! I want to hear more!
Tell me some sweet sweet songs about stalin, putin and pol pot!
tankie
This term is offensive.
We have brought this upon ourselves. We couldn’t let this go and now ziq has been summoned. All is lost.
I see it now.
You’re a wrecker and that’s all you seem to be.
Initially I thought you were just naive, then a troll. But your only aim is to wreck.
Have a shit day!
Initially I thought you were just naive, then a troll. But your only aim is to wreck.
Don’t forget immature as well!
Of all means which wisdom acquires to ensure happiness throughout the whole of life, by far the most important is friendship.
Correct
When the revolution comes, you will be forced to eat your veggies and go to bed at a reasonable hour
I’ll rather die before I eat my veggies!
Idiot
You made an irreverent joke, they respond with an irreverent joke, you respond with a flat insult.
Fucking why??? Is this me not understanding people or is this fucking bizarre?
I’m genuinely asking, whether it’s normal or bizarre this confuses me.
People often confuse the shit outta me.
I think a lot of Hexbears are just kinda upset and mad at them for all the shit-stirring in the last few days. I don’t really blame them.
I mean the way I see it, there was one initial incident of shitstirring, and it’s just been escalating leftist infighting since then. It wasn’t even originally made by db0, or in reference to hexbear specifically (but them sharing it was really the shitstirring incident).
To be blunt it seems like the magnitude of the hexbear response seems to have more to do with them being federated and given tacit permission to keep commenting about it here than anything else. There is a lot worse going on elsewhere that hexbear users don’t invest this much energy in because it is less convenient to do so.
None of that really helps me understand this attitude/behavior that seems like whiplash between humor and hatred.
Can you stop calling names? Rise above. We can establish a good conversation.
I think we, the various people of both instances, can have a good conversation. OP on the other hand has spent the last several days proving himself incapable.
people tried that on the last two threads. OP has no interest in conversing, so now they get insults
Sorry, good conversation is sealioning
whats sealioning?
Stop sealioning
lol you are accusing me of doing that hahehahahahaha
dude. if there is someone more marxist leninist than me I would love to met that person.
You can definitely do that
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Hey ziq, while you’re around, how are we gonna get rid of industrial society and organized agriculture without killing billions of people and using lots of authority?
killing billions of people
The end of industrial agriculture means the starvation of billions of people. The earth cannot support billions of hunter-gatherers or simple subsistence farmers.
And many millions of people need regular medication and medical treatment made possible by industry to keep living.
The end of industrial agriculture means the starvation of billions of people. The earth cannot support billions of hunter-gatherers or simple subsistence farmers.
For some reason utopians online think otherwise. I don’t think they realise what an accomplishment feeding billions of people is.
To be clear, I originally thought they were talking about war casualties. Maybe ziq in particular has some beliefs I’m not familiar with.
Nah don’t worry I’m not taking about your comment. I’m talking about most “anti Civ” leftists. You’re cool 😎.
Also the new Peppa pig profile picture lol
I’m hearing an implication that all anarchists are opposed to industry. Is this what you’re saying?
Edit: maybe I’m not familiar enough with ziq’s beliefs to know what is going on and I’m okay with that.
is that the ziq from raddle? that dude is a joke.
Yes
Can tankies and anticivs struggle on their respective platforms, please?
Can I ask what comm you thought this was? I don’t want to be an asshole but people seem lost on lemmy not infrequently… I’m wondering what it’s about.
To be clear if you hadn’t realized this is the anarchist community, hosted on an instance that I believe is owned (or maybe just operated by?) by the main mod of the anarchism community. This is their “respective platform”.
I don’t want to exert authority on or through the use of technology; I wish to curb anthropogenic climate change and authoritarianism. Neither to fear technology and to wish collapse of the systematic, industrial cultivation of arable land as well as scientific method, global communication nor to centralise authority and to control through technology by ‘vanguard’-elitism, panopticon of the (social) networks, state-sanctioned activism, militarisation, imperialism.
For once I think the distraction discourse has some merit: The politics of technology are a distraction from climate change action. Yes, technology itself is part of mitigation, adaption and resilience, but market fundamentalism (“freedom of technology choice”), anti-civilisationism (technology marginalisation) and social engineering (authority through technology) will not curb anthropogenic climate change and its impact enough.
Thus I’m tired of tankies and anticivs debating here, because I understand both as climate denialists (many anarchists are too, though).
PS: I’m ziq of your anti-anarchocommunism. I’m sick of your Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin, Mao, Castro, Xi.
Uh ok cool. Thanks for the interesting take.
But I literally mean “here” is owned by the person who posted this. Whatever you want to argue their stance is or should be called this platform is theirs.
So what are you doing here?
what a fucking idiot. calling the Nazis “collectivist capitalism” what the fuck
Some of the earliest usage of the word “privatize” in English was in regards to nazi Germany lmao.
Tankies praise these genocidal population transfers because they “lifted the peasants (that survived) out of poverty”. But they are measuring “poverty” by materialistic, capitalist standards that are simply of no use to the subsistence farmers, hunter-gatherers and nomadic herders that made up much of the pre-industrial world. Before Lenin, Stalin and Mao’s collectivization and industrialization, most peasants were largely self sufficient. Even those living in feudal territories, while by no means free, lived simple uncomplicated lives in harmony with nature; having no carbon footprint to speak of since industry was non-existent. Most enjoyed relative autonomy from the state (which had a far shorter reach), practiced mutual aid with their neighbors, and only needed to work a few hours a week [1] to produce all the food they needed to survive.
(emphasis mine) Bruh. Who do you think is the state? Is your feudal master (controls where you are allowed to shit!!) not the state?!
