I don’t understand why op thinks they are special for going through this workflow. Women are way less likely than men to ignore job requirements when applying for jobs and many many people have to be reminded that job requirements are fluffy. Are all these people “neurodivergent”? We seem to want to apply this term everywhere for some reason.
I think most people are like this but neurodivergent people have trouble coming to terms with breaking the rules. As in they see an incongruity between the stated rule and the way everyone behaves. What OP is talking about is textbook neurodivergence behavior though I’m sure other people experience this to some degree.
Yeah, this is an oddly common sentiment amongst those that make neurodivergence their personality; which is funny because it’s more common to be neurodivergent than neurotypical. While it’s usually said that 20% of people are neurodivergent, it’s actually more than 50% when you include everything that constitutes neurodivergence and even account for significant overlap.
I think “neurotypical” by now means “I wanna say ‘normie I look down upon’, but I don’t want to sound like an incel”
are y’all actually gatekeeping diversity?
It’s not lying as much as it’s advertising. If they’re asking about your greatest weakness, tell them. Just don’t neglect to mention how you mitigate that weakness too, and are improving. Don’t let your answer end on “I’m a disorganized mess”, end it on “so in the last year, I’ve started building and using checklists and it’s been really effective”.
In the same way, be up front if they ask about the criteria you don’t meet. But consider your entire answer, again, you can say something like “I actually haven’t worked in that language before, but I’ve done lots of work in Python and Java, so I’m confident I can pick it up quickly as needed”. If they don’t ask, then it probably wasn’t really that important of a criteria to them, so you shouldn’t waste your interview time talking about it either.
Don’t volunteer all your worst traits, you only have an hour, so focus on describing your strengths as often as you can. Nobody expects to completely understand you as a person in one hour, they’re specifically asking you to come in and advertise yourself. Instead, read between the lines in the listing (I.E. Things mentioned in the job description or title are likely more important than something in a single bullet point. Look for repetition, or how much they talk about each requirement.). Figure out what the “customer” wants that you’re good at, and ensure you emphasize it, repeatedly. Define clear takeaways and make sure they know what you’re offering, and will actually remember it too.
And practice your answers to many questions. Come up with your best anecdotes for “a time you resolved a conflict with a coworker” and all that nonsense in advance, so that you can confidently segue into those stories that best emphasize your takeaways when asked. Do some research on the company to come up with a good answer to questions like “why do you want to work here?”. The answer doesn’t have to be your top priority, which is obviously “a paycheque”, but just append an unsaid “instead of somewhere else” and answer honestly, because people are good at detecting insincerity. You likely haven’t applied to every company on earth, so tell them why you chose them.
Lastly, like an advertiser, don’t be afraid to segue from other questions into your prepared answers. “Yeah, I’ve always loved X, that’s why I wanted to work here actually, I’d heard a bit about how you were getting involved with X, but with this interesting twist, and thought that sounded like something I’d really enjoy working on”. The interview questions are designed to get you talking about yourself, it’s not a survey where the strict questions are all that matter, and you can simply joke about it if the question comes up later.
saving this for future reference. I’ve told this to many of friends over the years, but you’ve laid it out more beautifully than I ever did
As an autistic person I relate to this so hard it isn’t funny.
As a non-autistic person, it’s also incredibly annoying. Job hunting has always been a really stupid system with lots of really stupid rules of thumbs.
I have a stable job that I like.
Sometimes I think I should go to interviews just to make recruiters feel insecure, “your business is not up to my expectations” “what do you mean you don’t provide flexible remote working?” “Your paycheck is just too small for me, sorry”.
I would get a laugh of of it and probably would help some fella by lowering this fuckers ego.
Your motives are horrible. Hiring managers in any org larger than a few hundred people have very little control over anything you mentioned. So you’re just taking time away from other applicants and time away from the needs of the people who already work at a place in order to satisfy your pettiness.
If you actually did this rather than just wanting to, you would be the bad guy in the situation.
I do this all the time. Keeps my interview skills sharp. Plus you never know when somewhere will wind up making you an insane offer.
Neurotypical people are more “morally flexible.” Which sounds like hypocricy and corruption to me. Assume NT’s have ultirior motives and it becomes a easier to read between the lines.
They’re just made of better material.
explanation
…because material as in resource and as in genetic code…
…I’ll see myself out.
And for the record, I’m on the spectrum as well.
I can see where you’re coming from. Some people do have ulterior motives or misaligned morals, so it’s good to stay aware of that possibility. At the same time, assuming that’s true for everyone might not be necessary. Instead, it can be more effective to recognize that bad actors exist and use that knowledge to look at situations from multiple angles when needed. This approach helped me to stay critical and aware at (mostly) the right times, without jumping to conclusions too soon.
Hypocrisy and corruption are easy to breed from that, true. But the NT is also get a nice set of useful tools from it as well, like choosing their battles, and not painting people into corners.
How those tools are used are basically down to core morality and how you want to apply it to your subordinates, co-workers, and management.
I suspect I’m not fully ante and a lot of those lessons were difficult to figure out.
That’s a rather uncharitable, and frankly conspiratorial, way of viewing things lol
I think this is more true than most would like to think.
Reality is more nuanced than the words with which we describe it. A lot of NT “flexibility” is about recognising that. But, it often spills over into what is, really, lying.
Or we understand that a lot of the criteria is just a wishlist, and as long as you meet a significant chunk of it, the rest can be learned in the job.
So far, the other comments have failed to realize that this is actually some of our thought process and way of adapting to neurotypical norms.
I will say that after I get used to a person’s body language and speech patterns, I tend to ease off of assuming ulterior motives (which has bitten me on the ass once or twice).
I dont know why they do it and I dont care to find out. I just know I apply even if I dont match the complete criteria. If I tick off 60-70% of what they want, I’ll apply. We are people, not machines. If something doesnt match but is close to it, we try and make it work. This is how the real world works. There are multiple factors at play and they can work in your favour.
I got my first job which required a college degree and some experience. I had personal (non-professional) experience and no degree. Showed an interest in the work they did, told them I work on my own things from time to time and got hired. What probably worked in my favor was a lack of other applicants showing the same degree of interest. I even told them I’d graduate in a year and we made it a requirement. Never got my degree and worked there for 7 years. No lying, some luck and showing an interest. Same strategy worked two more times (out of two), 1st interview and “wanna come work for us?”. Its easier the second time since experience is built up already. And im not some extroverted silver tongued devil or anything. The right interviewer at the right time.
It’s because they’re actually lying about the criteria, its more like a wish list than actual requirements. In the interview just say oh I only know a little about criteria x but I’m keen to learn or whatever
Also if you lie on the application, aren’t they able to use that as an easy out to fire/lay you off without needing anything further?
If you actually lie, sure. But since you seem not to have applied for a job before: Typically you provide a resume. Your resume is supposed to be a true representation of your career focusing on what they say they want but without lying. Then they compare their wish list against what you have and see if the match is close enough then they talk to you. There is no “lying on the application” unless you lie on your resume.
And if you lie on your resume in a provable way (ie not “I said I knew this tool but really I just watched someone use it once” but more “I worked at this company and decided voluntarily to leave when in fact they fired me”) yes it could be used to get you out, but that’s well into stupid territory.
Most every job I have applied to in the last 10 years tries to auto import data from my resume into their preconfigured forms. Then sites like monster/indeed/Glassdoor etc usually have check boxes signifying if you have or have not possessed certain skills and if you do not have them checked it flags your application and you have to tell it to send them on anyways. 7+ years with such and such, for instance. It’s always a pain
You’re giving the people handling hiring way too much credit and assuming they are way better about documentation than they generally are lol
Those HR people who make the listing don’t understand most of it anyway.
“I’m looking fora Data Analyst”
“Gotcha, we put up an ad for Data Science”
“No, Data Analyst, that’s diff-”
“Here, we already got some applicants”
“They’ll be very disappointed to learn that I’m not interested in their AI skills”
I’m learning how many names there are now for “person who can shoot and edit video” since I last needed to look for a job in my field. To the point that I suddenly find a new keyword and there’s like 10 more jobs I can apply for.
Oh lord, as a 25 year industry vet in everything audio and video, that’s been with my current company for a looooong time, this bothers me. Out of interest what kinda whacky names are you seeing for this kinda roll?
Weird-ass shit like “Lead Creative” and “Social Marketing Executive”
It’s also ridiculous how often I see „Java“ instead of „JavaScript“ in job listings.
Edit: Not trying to judge Java here, this is purely about recruiters not knowing the difference, posting jobs for Java devs when they need JS devs
Agreed, why haven’t we killed java off? It’s terrible and there are replacements. At least with JavaScript it’s terrible but a monopoly.
Maybe they have a ton of different machines and need an app that works in any environment?
A lot og questions can be answered diplomatically and slow that you are able to handle yourself:
Q: do you like the colour red?
A1: I hate red A2: I don’t like red A3: Not my favourite colour A4: I prefer blue
In this entirely made up and pointless exercise you hate red and are asked if you like it. Real world applications converging on zero.
On a scale of lie to truth, where are you comfortable with representing your thoughts of red in an interview?
And remember, only Sith deals in absolutes🙃
The thing is, they are treacherous with their questions. Because the question itself doesn’t matter, what you answer is not the question itself, but the hidden question behind.
This means they don’t trust you to answer honestly, and yet, once you know how the process goes, they actually encourage people to be treacherous too.
This is a lose-lose strategy that they’re using. They are selecting treacherous people instead of qualified people. Probably because they are not qualified themselves, and because qualifications don’t matter to most companies. What matters is appearances and selling an idea.
Whaaaaat are you even talking about?
What’s an example?
And for context are we talking “applying to the best buy” or are we talking “applying to a professional or trade-type career”?
I don’t consider myself neurodivergent but I do consider this issue one of the greatest barriers with my finding employment. I was raised to despise lying, and enough bad experiences have made me consider ‘massaging the truth’ to be the exact same thing.
That whole routine doesn’t magically make sense to neurotypical people either.
Yes, and then don’t provide “real” answers at the interview, make up stuff they want to hear, be friendly and create small talk with a complete stranger, act like you actually GAF about the company when all you want to do is just get a job and start working, screw all this people-interaction stuff.
For me, getting the interview is the hard part.
I’ve never interviewed for a job where I didn’t get the offer. I can’t say exactly what works for me, but I can explain my process a bit.
First off, I go in confident. a lot of that probably had to do with my history with interviews, but that’s the first part.
Secondly, I look at it as me interviewing the company. I want to know the company is right for me. To that end, I ask a lot of questions about the position and the team. I ask if they’re looking to fill a hole or are willing to have the role reinvented.
Obviously, that last bit is for taking a unique role in the comment, not just as cashier number 23.
I am also clear that I’m not looking to remain in that position forever. I want to work at it a few years and move on, wither within the company or elsewhere. I won’t bail in 6 months, but I also won’t do the same job with no evolution for 10 years. My career needs to grow.
Essentially, I try to interview in a manner where they’re trying to win me over instead of weed me out.
I’m my current job, I was relaxed, got the interviewers talking family and casually about the projects, started giving feedback on issues as if I was already on board, and essentially changed it from an interview to a group meeting.
It turns out I was asking for about 30% more than my competition, but they gave it to me anyway, and it all came down to making myself feel like a member of the team they wanted to hold onto rather than just someone looking for a paycheck.
And I’m absolutely there for the paycheck. I liked my old job a lot more, but I got like a 60% pay bump going to the new job.
Years ago when I was applying for my first job I actually had to pretend that it always been my dream to work as a shelf stacker. It was such a weird game because everyone involved knows that it’s a total lie, they know your just telling them what they want to hear, you know that they know that you’re just telling them what they want to hear, they know that you know that they know you’re just telling them what they want to hear. But it doesn’t matter, you still have to go through the charade.
If you tell him the truth, that you’ll disappear as soon as you find someone prepared to pay you more than minimum wage, they won’t hire you. Despite the fact that everyone involved knows that that is the case, regardless of how honest you are about it.
yes that’s the point
they want someone desperate enough to lie to them and to themselves that their childhood dream is to become a shelf stacker, they want someone out of options, they want someone who will stay with them for a long time without even as much as a whimper of a complaint about low pay or the working conditions
if you have ambitions, you’re not who they’re looking for
best believe the same company will keep a ghost job listing for a shelf stacker up at all times, just so that the current employees feel replaceable and don’t dare to step out of line in fear of losing their job
But it doesn’t change even if you’re searching for executive-level jobs. They still want to know why you not only have wanted to be Junior VP of Marketing your entire life, they want to know why you have also wanted to be Junior VP of Marketing of ConHugeCo Industries all your life while applying to work that position at ConHugeCo.
Everyone knows the answer is “because I want this job more than the one I have right now” or just “because I need a job.” Those are really the only two answers.
It’s really ridiculous.
well i think half my point still stands - they want to know you’re not quitting any time soon. If you answer “yeah sure i guess the position sounds nice” they’re already scheduling the next interview because you ain’t sticking around
but yeah, it is absolutely ridiculous, i’m not an actor, and i’m neurodivergent, navigating those job market mind games is hell
Unfortunately this did not pan out for me at all when I tried to move out of IT support. Now I make fries and sandwiches (I don’t even make them, I just put the toppings on). If possible I’ll probably do this til I die, not cuz I love it, but because I never want to go through with the job application process ever again.
You have to go out and get a bullshit CompTIA certificate, otherwise no one will talk to you anymore.
That’s entirely dependent on experience. Low to no experience? Get certs. In today’s age of AI powered resume screens, even with experience if what you’re pursuing is a position lower on the totem poll then you will still need them to get through the AI. Probably want a higher-value cert than CompTIA if you wanna work in IT but don’t want to stay trapped in the help desk (I’m talking a networking cert, a cloud cert, ITIL, etc). The most common career path is through the help desk but one doesn’t need to stay there.
Once one gets a decent amount of experience certs don’t really matter. In fact, I climbed up the early rungs of the IT ladder by selling my experience with stuff in my home lab and selling my ability to learn. I don’t have a single cert and never have. I misrepresented nothing about myself, but I did need to eat some below-market-pay jobs at first to rack up real experience to sell. Nobody really cares about the cert, it’s a knowledge industry and what matters is what you know and what you’ve done.
I’m not sure where you’re looking for jobs but all of them require the certification even if you have experience. If you don’t have the certification they’re not even going to look at your resume to find out that you have experience, that’s the problem with AI screening, logical thought doesn’t get a look in.
Why yes, I do thrive under pressure. It’s why I use a weighted blanket.
I’d like to be
Under the sea
In an octopus’s garden
in the shade
You don’t lie, lying will get you into trouble. You just don’t mention it if they don’t ask. And if they don’t ask it’s probably not that important. Most job descriptions are like Christmas wishlists anyway, they will be happy if they get half of it.
These days you’re called different with a sexy word neurodivergent when you tell the truth.
Like this person I also find this strange. And like this person I also have problems during job interviews. I mean, I’m not bullshitting you and I expect you to do the same. But alas, it’s often bullshit and lowballing all the way.
You are looking at job applications from the wrong perspective. You are seeing the job description and seeing minimum requirements, when in 90% they are describing the ideal candidate that will probably never show up.
And I want to emphasise, you shouldn’t lie, you shouldn’t pad your résumé, but you should also not volunteer to testify against yourself.
My wife is super bad at not volunteering information.
She’s partially deaf and a few other issues that make phone conversations hard, so she often asks me to sit in and listen to explain anything she didn’t catch, and make sure she heard everything correctly.
I’m often making the neck cut “stop talking/mute mic” motion to get her to stop saying things the other people don’t need to hear.
For instance, she quit a previous job over an employee basically stalking her while she was on the property, and screaming in her face over any imagined sleight. This employee was a problem with others as well, but who you know is more important than how you work in some places so nothing was ever done.
The other places she interviews with don’t need the whole back story of why she quit. “Safety concerns” is completely correct, and leaves out the possibility that the new job might think you don’t work well with others. She does. The other guy didn’t.
So every time she starts telling the potential employer about it, I cut her off to remind her of that.
I’m very much the “ALL my information is need to know and you don’t need to know” kind of person when it comes to things like that, and she just kind of vomits words all over the place when she feels uncomfortable.
i’ve heard the first rule of negotiations is don’t answer any unasked questions.
That’s good advice, but my problem is that my line of thought is connected to every other line of thought. It’s quite the task to know where an answer to a question ends.
answer enough to finish with a good question.
Oh, hey, see now that is something I may be able to do. Instead of following the stated answer of least resistance, keep a mind out for a question on that path.
Yes, minimum requirements are not actually minimum requirements. So silly for people taking things literally.
That’s the thing, they aren’t minimum requirements. They’re a form that HR fills out based on what HR thinks the job is, not based on what the actual job is.
i often see a list of minimum and preferred.
“Minimum Bachelor’s Degree with major in Accounting, Finance or Economics”
“Prior audit or relevant accounting experience preferred, but not required.”Strikes me as “This job can be done by anyone with a high school education that knows how to open Excel, change a cell value, and send an email. Other duties as assigned.”
Then the job listing should say that instead.
I know that’s not the whole job listing, but but none of it specifies a minimum requirement for the job. The ‘minimum’ qualification just indicates that they’re not going to take note of lower qualifications, or those without an appropriate Major, not that having one is a minimum requirement. All things being equal, they’re certainly going to prefer someone with that qualification, but if you can get past the screening and show aptitude with the skills they actually need, you’ve got a chance.
I know that’s not the whole job listing, but but none of it specifies a minimum requirement for the job.
People here expecting a bureaucracy to behave not only like a person, but like a honest and transparent person with simple and plainly stated goals…
They’re not usually labeled “minimum requirements”
That may be what you’re interpreting, but they’re usually titled “ideal applicants will have the following” which isn’t the same thing
It feels like the same thing to people with rigid views on the world, but they are not the same.
It’s not people with rigid world views, but people who don’t know the social cues/“legalese” of job speak.
AKA local bullshit.
I frequently see a list of minimum separate from preferred. Here’s an example.
Entirely!
But not all systems have that feature.
If s not a requirement if it is optional or noce-to-have!
Which means the company is lying. Respond to them with this knowledge in hand, any way that you see as appropriate.
It’s only wrong if you get caught!
I find it entertaining that the criteria for neurodivergence includes telling the truth.
I find it concerning that lying is apparently always an option for NTs.
I’m autistic and lying is always an option for me too. I’m extremely good at it. I just don’t do it, because it’s wrong and harmful.
Isn’t it annoying that the majority of time when it is pointed out that an entire system is based on lying and misrepresentation that the excuse is either ‘that’s just how it is’ or ‘everyone does it’ as if that makes it right somehow.
Neurotypical just seems to be going along with everyone else’s bullshit to avoid conflict.
I think when people say “it’s how it is” or “everyone does it”, it’s more of a pragmatic way to cope. End of the day, we gotta have food, shelter, and entertainment. If only shitheads lie, they’ll be the only one to be successful. One person on the bottom being honest won’t change a system with ages of momentum
The calculus is if I value truth telling over my mortgage? Vast majority of the time, my mortgage wins.
Many people mistake cowardice for wisdom.
I was taught that lying is a sin and if I do it I will burn in hell for all enteeity. Also, that it is expected that I lie on basically every form I’m provided, mostly by ommission but other ways too.
There’s a reason I rarely feel hopeful.
That’s the whole communication gap. When allistic people talk they will almost always lie or say something other than what they mean, which gives the other person the opportunity to lie or ignore what they meant if it suits them. This is what’s known as being “polite.”
That’s an intentionally rigid view of the world.
The communication gap is that rigidity.
For example, it may say “minimum requirements” on the web form, but let’s put ourselves into the shoes of the person filling it out. Are they SUPER strict on these minimums? Or are they just filling out the form the best they can?
Usually it says sobering along the lines of “ideal candidates” and not “bare minimum” but you likely won’t see that due to overly rigid views on the world.
What if they made a mistake when filling it out, and added things to the “bare minimum “ that aren’t really that harsh a requirement?
It’s a grey area, it’s not a direct lie and you know that, you just don’t like it.
Saying it’s a lie assumes you know the intention of the person writing it, and that they intended to deceive you. And you can’t possibly know that either.
It’s Not a lie and you’re misrepresenting your knowledge of the scenario when you say that.
As an autistic I resolve this in my head by reminding myself that words can have different meanings.
For example
(“How are you?” -> “I’m fine how are you?” -> “Doing well, thanks”)
actually means
(“hello” -> “hello”)It’s code. The meaning is precise, and it’s not a false question. It’s a symbolic question.
It’s an equivalent meaning in the same way that:
(“hola” -> “hola”)
means the same thing as
(“hello” -> “hello”)English is, therefore, not just one language. English is many languages using the same set of words.
Beautiful and thoughtful response.
I’m peak ADHD, and I often use the same type of thing
Wait hold on.
Are you saying NT lie all the time or ND lie all the time?
Because neither of those is true?
Or if it is, it explains my ex a whole lot better
NT people lie and or talk around what they mean rather than say it directly. Neurodivergent people, especially autistic people, are not like this and find it taxing to deal with.
That doesn’t make any sense. Yes, I have ADHD and not ASD, so yes I have a slightly easier time with social interactions, but NT don’t lie or avoid direct language. They try to minimize the harm of their words.
That’s like me stating that ND people lack empathy, and they are insulting because they don’t care about the other person’s feelings.
I think if you look for it you will see it more often. I also think most NT don’t notice when they do it because it’s second nature. Sure there are white lies, small lies, and then more nefarious lies. It’s still a core part of “normal” communication. Add in the indirect speech and every meaningful conversation is like a game where no one says what they actually mean.
…and the rules change at a whim, it is never consistent…
Plus they vary massively from culture to culture and region to region, but are all treated as the right way to behave.
I’m not telling you not tell the truth, I’m telling you to consider that list of skills on a job description is a wishlist and only answer what is asked in the interview.
I’ve interviewed more people than I can count, leading to more hirings than I can count, and I don’t remember any case where the candidate met all the checkboxes on the ideal skillset. Because what goes in the job description is the perfect candidate not the minimum.
When I found out the list of qualifications could be filled on the job it made applying a lot easier because I was no longer worried about bring ‘found out’ for not being fully qualified on day one. I blame the position wording making it sound like day one requirements and HR treating them as day one requirements
So you’re saying that you’re the one doing the lying when you fill out the job description?
I’m my experience, even if you get caught. The exaggeration to get your foot in the door is expected, and everyone is expected to represent themselves deceptively well. Honesty in the interview when everyone can deal with nuance can work and might be appreciated, but definitely a little exaggeration in the resume unless you have ungodly actual credentials/connections.
In my case, early in my career a contracting company lied on my behalf without telling me.
So I’m in the “skills assessment” meeting and I’m confused when they started rattling off experience from my resume that I didn’t have. I asked if I could see their copy of my resume and said “ok they made this section up, but the rest appears the same, here a printed copy of my resume unmodified”.
I was shocked and figured that was a way to tank any chance I had at the job, but they “hired” me and said people and contracting companies did it all the time, so it didn’t phase them, but admitted my resume as it was from me wouldn’t have even gotten an assessment.
Lying by omission is still lying. And if they weren’t hard requirements, they should say so. So many job listings I’ve seen word it like those are the minimum requirements.
Also, if you think enough about what a lie even is you can rationalize a lot. Am I a self motivated and highly organized person? Well, nobody’s ever described me that way before, but maybe I could start being one right now, stranger things have happened. And if it all blows up a few months down the line because I couldn’t manage to get my shit together, I’ll take my couple of paychecks and tell myself “well, I meant to do better” and that will be at least 51% true and I will have a couple of paychecks I wouldn’t have otherwise.
Alternatively, just find a way to sell your weaknesses as strengths. e.g. “I’m not always super organized, but I’m real good at dropping in to a chaotic situations on short notice and getting the essential things straightened out quickly because my disorganized nature has forced me to learn those skills. I’m not self motivated, so you don’t need to worry about me undermining your plans and vision for this place with my own, making decisions makes me nervous so you do that stuff and I will see that your decisions are carried out.”
