These people sound like exact copies of the people saying voting in 2000 didn’t matter, and that turned out to be the most politically consequential of my lifetime. Gore was imperfect as they all are, but holy fuck did Dubya fuck up literally everything he touched.
Among many, many, many things, Dubya started forever wars killing untold hundreds of thousands of people. He accelerated oil and gas production, absolutely setting the Climate Change world on a pace for disaster. He seated Alito, unquestionably the biggest monster currently on the Supreme Court. And he passed a monster tax cut for the rich that set us on this path of unrestrained deficit spending.
And that’s just the headlines. Remember when he tried to put his personal lawyer on the Supreme Court? lol
Gen X already tried this 25 years ago and it fucked the world up so badly that we need to be saved by the future generations. Imagine not learning that lesson and doing it again.
I always wonder how Gore might have acted in response to 9/11.
Probably a similar initial response, but no Iraq War two years later. Which would make a… massive (and positive, in case that wasn’t clear) change in the direction and concerns of American foreign policy.
He wouldn’t have suspended civil rights, permitted torture and made a mockery of the rule of law.
We think that yes. I’m a gore fan.
But remember there were 100s of people driving towards those topics. Career defense and security types making their damnedest case that they needed those tools to avoid 9/11 2.0.
I hope gore, and the staff he surrounded himself with would have had the vision to avoid all that, despite the pressure.
Never forget. If you want an even crazier mindfuck, watch the original “Utopia”, the original 2013 British version. For real.
Based on after-the-fact reports, it may never have happened.
Maybe that’s just exposure to all the conspiracy theories, though, I dunno if he would have acted any differently than Bush did to the intelligence reports.
After 9/11, the U.S. Got Almost Everything Wrong
It would have been very different.
I meant before 9/11, sorry for not making that clear :)
They had intelligence that terrorists from Al-Queda were training and planning for an attack, hijacking commercial planes.
Bush et al did next to nothing with that intel, at best.
It’s questionable if it’d have even happened had gore been at the desk, y’know, because he’d have probably actually read the imminent attack report about the plot before it happened.
True dat. He wasn’t part of the cabal. That’s also why he wasn’t elected, in spite of winning. Just like Hillary.
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W was catastrophic. Honestly him and Reagan are the cause of most of our issues.
Nixon deserves a mention there too.
Nixon is inadvertently responsible for the creation of the right wing media circus which I would argue is fully responsible for W and trump.
If you’re going to mention Nixon, then you have to include Andrew Johnson.
Y’all are also forgetting Wilson.
Nixon had some redeeming qualities, like enacting the EPA and Clear Water/Air acts
Don’t forget in his first week or so he passed No Child Left Behind, which has irreparably damaged the education of children in this country.
https://www.epi.org/publication/what_went_wrong_with_no_child_left_behind/
Man, what I would do to have an unabashed giant nerd for president. I forget what people’s issue with Gore even was.
Al Gore won the popular vote, but there was some sketchiness down in Florida. During a recount, Roger Stone rallied the troops (Brooks Brothers riot) which caused the counting to be stopped, due to threats of violence. Setting up the supreme Court to decide Bush won Florida.
During a recount, Roger Stone rallied the troops (Brooks Brothers riot) which caused the counting to be stopped, due to threats of violence.
In other words, the 2000 coup succeeded.
It’s why they project so hard about Democrats cheating elections.
The Republicans have been for decades. And can’t stand sometimes enough people show up that they still lose.
LOL yep. Constantly the conservatives manage to take their own manufactured outrage turn it into violence and then turn out the results they want.
Apparently burning down the Reichstag still works if you have the power to seize the moment.
Damn that sounds really really familiar. Almost like it happened just a couple years ago.
I, personally sat out that election because I didn’t like Al’s wife, Tipper Gore. She led the charge in a bunch of manufactured outrage about obscenity in music. I was also a jaded, cynical gen-xer who’d been hearing the importance of voting as long as I could remember, but every election was just choosing between a douchbag and a turd sandwich.
Looking back on everything that happened after that election, it’s insane to imagine how different things would be now if Gore had been in office instead of the criminal enterprise that we ended up with.
Though the Bush presidency lead to Cheney’s wife taking up that mantle anyways.
Gore was the watershed moment of the white left deciding no progress is allowed to happen unless it’s by their hands and they get all the credit.
Nader fired up his campaign in swing states as an act of retaliation against Gore posing himself as the climate candidate.
That’s it.
The Greens had a meltdown that the thing that usually happens to third parties in this country, that is having their platforms become the mainstream if they make enough noise, was happening to them, and they decided we’re not allowed to make any progress on climate unless we do it through them so fuck Gore and fuck anyone who’d dare support that disgusting “mOdErAtE!”
You think you might be projecting just a little bit of internalized anger there?
He hates anyone to his left. And only his left.
What really gets my goat is how some people now act like George W Bush is this respectable elder statesman that only did his best and oh, how cute, he’s friends with Michelle Obama. Like, sure, next to Trump he looks like a political savant, but come on, he still was a total piece of shit that did lasting damage.
He literally lost the popular vote, how does “vote more” mean anything
Protest voters who supported Stein alone would have flipped every single rust belt state had they decided on the country over feeling validated in wanting to vote “for” someone, and Zoomers and Millenials simply matching their share of the population in turnout could have propelled Bernie to the front of the primaries and over the finish line.
Nevermind how not voting let trump happen, not voting let clinton happen.
True story. If Gen X didn’t vote they literally died. /s
Be boring somewhere else.
Sorry, just trying to add some levity.
There are legitimate criticisms to be had of Biden, but in every case, Trump is unambiguously worse. If Trump were pro-Palestine, I could maybe understand single-issue voters preferring him to Biden…but he’s not.
To be honest, I have little hope for 2024. Genuine fake news is rampant, and in pretty much every case it hurts Biden (misinformation about the economy, etc.). I’ll be voting a straight Dem ticket in my very red state, and hoping against all hope that uninformed voters somehow do the right thing.
no one is saying they’re going to vote for trump. they’re saying they won’t vote for biden
Lmao, that’s the epitome of something that sounds smart but is incredibly stupid when you think about it. Especially in response to this meme.
In FPTP not voting for the chosen democratic representative means one vote less is required for the conservative. It doesn’t matter if that’s because you added a vote for Democrats, or didn’t vote at all. Same for voting 3rd party, it just ensures you get the candidate you want the least.
I agree with this. Choosing a lesser evil in a FPTP, bicameral political system is not the answer. Pushing for ranked choice voting is the answer, and one step towards proportional representation like what we see in the EU.
And not voting is never the answer.
that the epitome of something that sounds smart but is incredibly stupid
I voted for Howie in 2020 and Biden won. you don’t seem to know how voting works.
You don’t seem to know what anecdotal evidence or statistical analysis works.
Biden barely won, and you didn’t get the candidate you wanted. In 2016, it’s people like you who gave trump the victory
Same for voting 3rd party, it just ensures you get the candidate you want the least.
this claim is obviously false, since I have provided proof against it. if you want to weaken the claim, moving the goalposts, that’s fine, but don’t break a sweat.
Not sure if you’re just being intentionally thick or a troll.
Youre explaining yourself that despite you voting against him, Biden won, and you didn’t want Trump and the person you voted for didn’t win. So your actions gave you the least chance of having a candidate you were aligned with.
If anything, you are giving proof that it’s a dumb thing to do. But that would be anecdotal evidence, and there’s no need for that.
If you manually run the results and the effects of 3rd parties, it’s pretty clear that it makes no sense in First Past the Post.
It’s a thing known as The spoiler effect, or vote splitting and has always been a documented thing that dumb people don’t understand. Who do you think funds these 3rd parties in the first place…
Youre being played.
So your actions gave you the least chance of having a candidate you were aligned with.
i was aligned with the candidate for whom i voted, and i was not aligned with the candidates i voted against.
if i’m just too thick to understand, a big big dummy, then you better make sure the vote isn’t split: vote with me.
Are you 12
people who voted for Trump gave him the victory. 50 years of people like Joe biden running the Democrat party gave Trump the victory. don’t blame me.
But they’ve been running the conservative party the same way for 50 years too. You’re literally admitting to hate Biden so much you let the conservatives win even if that meant making the US worse.
Literally what the meme is about. Tell us, what have you gained from it aside from more frustration and hate? Biden didnt learn anything from 2016. You can blame biden when you lose your democracy, but you’ll still have lost your democracy. I wouldn’t wait for Biden to fix that. The democratic party is more than one person making decisions, and handing the power to your enemy is not how you make changes within your own team.
The democratic party is more than one person making decisions, and handing the power to your enemy is not how you make changes within your own team.
the democrats aren’t my team.
You’re literally admitting to hate Biden so much you let the conservatives win even if that meant making the US worse.
no, i’m not
Yeah and we could find one person who voted for vermin supreme, Biden still won. What would their point be if they were here, I wonder? Speaking of points, what’s yours?
Oh man give me Vermin Supreme. I think he could make a real difference.
Speaking of points, what’s yours?
no one is saying they’re going to vote for trump. they’re saying they won’t vote for biden
Therefore Trump wins. Abstaining is still an action, and still has an effect as much as you want to be above it all on your moral high horse.
The end result is the same.
no, it’s not.
I mean it practically is. The happy pain supporters will still show up to dish out their warped idea of hateful justice.
If water was flooding into your house and you said you won’t bother to turn the water main off because the roof is failing you still end up with a flooded house.
The incident is happening whether or not you participate in it. The best you can do is push against it even if it’s tiring and doesn’t fix all things. And unless you are ending your own existence then you will be around to experience the fallout.
Self inflicted pain still hurts even if you think it’s deserved. I know it’s rough but the world keeps spinning without your input. Fate is for those that do not act.
Fascinating
“Sure, I made the ongoing genocide worse, but at least I didn’t vote for GENOCIDE JOE” - Useful idiots for the Israeli far-right
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Is PugJesus hired by the DNC? David Brock’s Correct The Record part deux?
Looks to me like PugJesus just made a simple observation. No sorosbucks needed.
A critical refinement of this point: By all means, please do vote for whichever actual progressive candidate you favor in your state’s Democratic primary. This is not sarcasm; do it. But when the general election comes around Biden is inevitably the candidate anyway, do whatever it takes to keep Trump out of office.
If you’re in a red area, consider voting in the Republican primary in good faith. (Don’t try nominating the worse candidate. The backfire is terrible.) You’re still allowed to vote for whoever you want in the general. This election primaries will largely be about down ticket races, but that’s important too.
That would require them to actually give enough of a shit to turn out for primaries, and president Bernie can tell you that none of these fake allies actually care enough to wrench themselves from their two bit Jean-Paul Marat act for such a herculean labor.
See Bernie 2016. Won the DNC, but got snake in the grass Hillary instead, which led to understandable mass apathy amongst the Democratic voters. I’m still pissed! Kinda like what reportedly happened with McGovern '72
And why shouldn’t Biden do whatever it takes to stop Trump? If supporting a genocide loses votes, there’s an easy way to win those votes back.
How do we know supporting Israel isn’t getting him more votes then not supporting Israel?
Woah woah woah, you mean actually try to win votes through rational and humane policy and not merely the fact that he’s running against a human piece of shit and is technically better? You mean that we should have someone with actual principles on the democratic ticket instead of someone nodding along and sending weapons to a genocidal government? Outrageous wow why do you love Trump so much
You can tell they’re white because they phrased this like they’re lecturing the party’s manager at DNC Walmart
It’s not that simple. Changing positions will probably polarize people to vote against him as much as it will win over votes to him.
Especially because those who are likely to withhold votes over this will probably demand the most drastic of actions before Biden passes their purity test.
Geopolitically it’s a bad move on top of that as it ends the relationship with practicallythe only middle Eastern power we have as an ally.
The reproductions of that alone is certain to energize opposition to Biden in the far right.
While he may lose voters over his current inaction, taking action could easily lead to a net loss on election day.
Unfortunately what is best for a country geopolitically and what is morally right often don’t agree with each other.
I just can’t wait for those of us in the queer community to either be thrown in camps or flee the company, all so that the people who didn’t vote can tell me it’s actually because of Biden.
As a trans person, it’s been so upsetting how quickly the people who claim to support you just ignore the looming danger. They don’t want to vote for Biden because he supports a genocide while ignoring the genocide that’s about to happen in our own country.
What’s really terrifying, is that history repeats itself. The Weimar Republic of the 1920’s was supportive of trans Rights as well, like America currently, it had the first trans health center, including the first governmental support for trans people Transvestitenschein
Then someone who had a huge gang of violent thugs took over power and all his enemies ended up dead or locked up.
You know those, “if you could go back and shoot Hitler before he came to power” thought experiments? But I would never condone violence…
I would. I have thought about doing it myself so many times. The logistics of it though, I can’t. I’m not the Jackal.
EXACTLY.
Yes, I get it, things are shit. Innocent people and children are dying. You can and should be upset about that. But we don’t have the luxury of taking our ball and going home. Even more people are going to get hurt if Biden doesn’t win.
It’s a myth that there isn’t anything to vote for, only against. We have LGBT rights to vote for. Minority rights. Protecting vulnerable Americans. Stopping fascism.
Let my future kids and their kids call me a genocide supporters for voting for Biden. As long as they can identify as who they want and love who they want without any persecution, I’ll accept the condemnation.
Genocide is okay as long as it happens somewhere else. AmIRite?
For real - we’ve got youth bans all over the place, just got an adult effective ban in Ohio, with more and more states making existing as trans in public a jail-able offense, but GeNoCiDe JoE
Especially frustrating when it’s coming literally from a trans person. In a high-risk state. It boggles the mind.
Roe got overturned with Biden in office, you really think your rights are safe with him in office? The SC will still be corrupt. The state you live in seems far more important
How is a trans person in America more important than a Palestinian?
Where did I say that? Nobody’s free until everybody’s free. The genocide in Palestine is obviously abhorrent, I don’t want it happening here too
One person vs a group? You have an argument. But how are you gonna complain about one genocide while openly admitting to being OK with another?
There IS no current trans genocide. There IS a current genocide in Gaza. Speculating in hypotheticals is folly.
Biden gets in:
- Palestinian genocide continues
- Trans rights continue
Trump gets in:
- Palestinian genocide continues
- Trans rights eroded
Which would you prefer?
I’d be willing to bet that not too long ago, you couldn’t point to Palestine on a map, could you? I’ll bet you had NO IDEA there was even a conflict brewing there.
And dollars to donuts- you had to have the entire thing explained to you several times before you chose your side.
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Queer people keep telling me Palestine is a nice place, maybe that’s a better option than America?
S/
Reading these comments, it feels people are having a giant trolley problem moment. Do I vote for Biden and throw the switch so fewer people die, or do I not do it and let more people die, but at least I’m not complicit then?
You’re right but a bunch of people just don’t care anymore and I can’t totally blame them. I’ll be voting biden because I always vote, but this is on democrats 100% if they can’t motivate their base.
I think the issue is more rooted in people like you. Spewing voter suppression rhetoric from somewhere but it’s rooted in propaganda. Rather than rallying people to help and pointing out the good, which is what gets people motivated, you instead choose to blame the people trying not to turn America into a neo-nazi fascist theocracy. Which is the root at which the meme is getting at lol.
Unless it’s simple cat and dog pics (even then sometimes) people on the internet just love to pretend they’re above the people who watch reality TV, when it’s just a different flavor of the same thing.
If you’re interested in convincing people to vote for Biden (which I think is the best option we’ll have this election) then I would urge you to talk about the contributions he’s made, and to stop telling people who don’t want to vote for him that they’re the reason the fascists might win. Even if it were true, telling them that will not convince anyone to vote for Biden.
It’s also misguided to blame voters for not voting the way you want. If you want a vote, you have to convince the voter! Oh, is the voter too stupid or evil to understand that the candidate is the best? That’s a candidate problem. It’s literally how democracy works.
But if they don’t vote for him, fascists WILL win. This is not an opinion. It’s a hard truth. And that should be motivation enough for one to hold their nose and vote- THEN make the decision to pay attention more than once every four years.
That same line gets thrown at leftists every election despite no concessions from liberals. Leftists are absolutely trying to make grassroots movement, but overcoming the liberal status quo and making positive change is tremendously difficult. Yes, leftists should vote for Biden, but the DNC should not be surprised that Leftists get desperate and can vote third party if the DNC continues to be a center-right Neoliberal mess.
If it’s not motivating people whose fault is that?
I voted for Biden before and I’ll do it again. I do think Trump is a threat to democracy. But if a restaurant goes out of business, is it reasonable or productive to say, “it’s the person who didn’t patronize our restaurant who did this”? “If it weren’t for the naysayers and people going to our competitors we would have stayed open!”
Maybe the restaurant should have changed the menu. Maybe it should have offered better prices. Maybe they should have made it more welcoming and marketed better.
For people who don’t want to eat shit, either don’t offer them shit, explain how it’s not shit, or make a pretty empathetic and convincing case why they’ve got to. My original point was that attempting to shame people and point the finger is not that winning case.
Except it isn’t a restaurant, it’s control of government, and a basic understanding of the rules of voting in the country shows that there are only two choices that have a reasonable chance of winning.
And? If you want people to vote for the candidate you support, you have to convince them to do it!
Yeah which takes ads, which require donations, and that is why politicians basically have to sell out in order to get votes.
EDIT: Everyone is right. The way the world works is that the Democratic candidate has to be a vaulted saint who single-handedly sheds decades old international alliances and ends all war and famine, is immune from money concerns, and disseminates his message via telepathy because traditional donations are beneath a being of his type…and he must be able to fully defeat a Republican demagogue who takes money from anyone, has the full support of Russia, and whose every utterance is covered in the press in addition to being a de-facto cult leader with a warchest of millions or even billions of dollars to be able to do traditional ad buys as well.
Completely reasonable 🙄
It’s entirely reasonable to blame review bombers for reducing business
It’s a convenient excuse to blame bad reviews for a restaurant closing. If the fundamentals of the business are good then bad reviews might hurt but aren’t a fatal blow. We can push any analogy until it breaks, but your example is a good case where blaming bad reviews is a convenient way for a restaurant owner to absolve themselves of responsibility or having to think introspectively about why they’re not doing well, similar to what Democratic leadership often does.
How about NO analogies.
Staying home instead of voting because one is too busy pouring over a single issue ideology easily the most of tent and foolish thing one can do. The majority of these kids suffering people do this, and/or stating that they themselves are doing this- maybe should place been paying attention the over the last 8-10 years and being active about making change instead of whining o line ever four years.
There. No analogies.
We’re past motivation. It’s fight for the existence of destruction of democracy. Vote now and worry about who’s to blame later.
If it’s as serious as you say, you might consider trying to sway people who don’t already agree with you instead of telling them they’re the reason the country is in trouble.
It’s amusing that you think I haven’t tried this already. I tried it in 2016 with the Bernie Bros, and again in 2020. This year, I say fuck them. I will be voting to save democracy, but I’m done trying to reason with unreasonable children and I’m not about to kiss their smug asses to get them to see part their own ignorance.
I’ll be voting biden
I think the issue is more rooted in people like you.
had me goin for a second.
Let me put it another way: The original comment has “I’m not racist, but…” energy.
let me put it another way: biden is terrible, and the issue is rooted in people voting for him.
Meh
I can, some of us live this shit enough that being able to not care is a fucking privilege we don’t have.
I blame those backstabbing privileged twats all the way to my grave and then haunt their asses for being able to and choosing to not care.
Fuck your apathy, I want to live, and you shitbags owe it to me and those like me to do the literal minimum that helps achieve that if you want all the glitz and glam of marching alongside us at pride as if you are our allies.
Listen bro, im voting biden but im going to complain the whole damn time, you can take it or leave it.
Don’t forget the Deportation Force that’s going to round up 11 million people and deport them. I wish I was joking.
And by deport they probably mean throw in concentration camps and then murder en masse.
If that happens, I wonder what the Mexican government and the cartels would say.
The Mexican government would be quite vocally mad and file lawsuits but nothing would really come of it.
The cartels wouldn’t care as long as the flow of guns and money from the north didn’t stop.
That is dark as fuck.
Did people forget that Trump was up Netanyahu’s ass during his presidency?
This should be a lovely comment section… I’ll have to return with some nice warm dinner and a drink later.
Don’t forget some popcorn.
It’s still pretty wild in here
I try to think that hopefully Trump would get stonewalled enough that he wouldn’t be able to get any of this done.
Then I realize that he seriously does not care. He doesn’t give a shit about Congress, or checks and balances. He and his party have clearly demonstrated that they have no interest in the system of “law and order” that they cling so close to.
Who’s gonna stop him? His courts? An impeachment? Antifa gonna go out and storm Pennsylvania Ave and live up to their damn name, which somehow became an insult?
The fact that this man is on a ballot in any state is shameful. The GOP of just a dozen fucking years ago would have tossed him out on his ass in a second. Somehow since then, Romney, McCain, and Liz Cheney have become the sole voices of reason within the party. One got blackballed, one got censured, and the other one died.
I try to think that hopefully Trump would get stonewalled enough that he wouldn’t be able to get any of this done.
Then I realize that he seriously does not care. He doesn’t give a shit about Congress, or checks and balances. He and his party have clearly demonstrated that they have no interest in the system of “law and order” that they cling so close to.
This cannot be understated enough. He will be a day one dictator. Then he’ll be a day two dictator, and day three and four. He won’t stop because he knows no one will stop him.
I think the most dissappointing is the current state of the Republican Party.
Seems like back in 2008, the Republican Party was a bit stubborn and stuck in the old days, but they were mostly harmless, like a grandpa who rattles his cane at “kids these days”. Endearing, but not crazy.
Then everything changed. They’ve gone full tilt crazy. They’ve actually managed to redeem 43 and make him look tame and competent (by comparison).
The nutter in me (what’s left of it, after /r/conspiracy got a cheeto mustache) is seriously starting to think that Reddits admiration of Ron Paul (that I very much got caught up in) was a practice run for some psyop astroturf shit that evolved into Trumps presidency.
I think they only get seen as harmless because they only had to perform small acts of violence to get their desired outcomes. They invaded a hotel to spy on their opponents, allied with people that murdered journalists and even in 2000 organized riots outside vote counting centers that gave fear of violence against arbiters of democracy. We cared a lot about the little things so they didn’t have to do as much.
But the world is more chaotic now and the big violent movements get way more sway and leaves even more room for bigger grabs of power. It’s just a progressing issue that came from us tolerating anything to keep status quo and let people make even more money regardless of how.
Did you hear of the robocalls in NH? Using a deepfaked Biden voice and the spoofed caller ID if someone from the state DNC, telling Democrats to “save their vote for November”?
Disgusting. And I wouldn’t be surprised if it played a hand in Haley’s surprisingly small loss in NH as undeclared voters are able to request either ballot.
Woah what the hell? No! I didn’t know about that!
What a weird concept. I’m not even entirely sure the desired outcome other than to see if it works and if they (the people doing this) could get away with it. I feel that it definitely sets dangerous precedent and makes it even muddier to have a well informed voter base.
You are thinking that people that would have voted for Biden then used their primary vote to go for Nikki Haley though?
No sense voting for Biden. He’s pretty much locked as the DNC candidate, the primary is really a formality (as often as it seems to be now).
No, NH has an open primary. Any undeclared voter can register for one party for the day to cast a primary ballot.
A lot of independents are undecided in these situations, since they can vote in either primary. Their vote is actually kind of especially powerful, since in this case they can use it to vote against someone in particular.
I live in MA which does the same. I am very left leaning but emphatically selected a republican ballot for the primaries.
Edit to add: this is also why Trumpists are lashing out against her, specifically in NH…they can’t fathom that voters can be independent. You’re either a modern republican or a librul.
What was it they used to say? Country before party? Facts not feelings? Law and order? Literally all of this shit is practically Orwellian. Ironically they really latch onto the “Ignorance is Strength” part.
So maybe we need a third option. I don’t know, maybe a candidate that isn’t an evil geriatric white man that can barely finish a sentence?
You guys wouldn’t have this clusterfuck if you just had a parliamentary system. Don’t like the non-reactionary liberal candidate? Great, just vote for whoever else you like, and even if they don’t win, they can still join efforts with the lesser evil to make sure the far right doesn’t return to power. It also has the added benefit that it doesn’t force the whole right wing of the country to cater to the rabid reactionaries on the rise, because those just make a different party that has to balance the distribution of their power with their less mad allies.
I feel like posts like these always fail to realize how fucked of a situation US ‘democracy’ is in where you must vote for one shitty candidate because the other is literally a fascist.
Like no actually some people have decided that the entire system is untenable - they no there’s a lesser of two evils, but they refuse to partake of an illegitimate system.
If we don’t at least pretend to be willing to wield our voting power to influence our govt, we might as well give up and accept we live in an oligarchy.
Sometimes just the threat of violence is enough to get people to act. Biden has already changed his administrations public stance and rhetoric towards Israel at merely the risk of losing votes. Ideally it would have been because of the loss of human lives, but beggars can’t be choosers.
